Are Manga Studio and Anime Studio the programs for me?

[Michael221]

So I'm venturing into the cartooning and animation field because of a personal passion, and have actually been learning the basics of drawing on good old pencil and paper for the past few months.

But I'm starting to look into drawing programs to be used with a tablet, and after a ton of research, I narrowed it down to either Manga Studio or Photoshop. (I'm familiar with the popular free programs as well...Pencil, Synfig, GIMP, etc.)

Likewise, after a ton of research, it seems like Anime Studio Pro is best suited for a amateur like me. (Still wrestling with the idea of learning on a big dog program like Flash or Toon Boom...but I think ASP-9 holds its own against those two.)

My ultimate goal would be able to cartoon and animate a show like Shorty Watchin' Shorties...which is a one season show on Comedy Central that animated stand-up comic routines: http://www.comedycentral.com/cc-studios ... on-her-mom

I know that show uses Flash...but I was wondering if I could create something like that (assuming I have the talent) in Manga Studio and Anime Studio.

Which leads me to my second question...do Manga Studio and ASP work well together? Meaning, draw/color the cartoon in Manga...and then export it to ASP to animate it. I would think yes, since both programs are made by the same company, but I haven't found too much info on that.

Anyway, main question is...could I create a show that aesthetically looked and moved like Shorty Watchin' Shorties on Manga and ASP...or do I need to go the Photoshop and Flash route in the Adobe world?

I appreciate any advice you can give.

Thanks!!

[slowtiger]

If your design style is that of the example, you only need AS. It's always best to create the characters in the program it shall be animated with.

You may also look for an additional bitmap based software for backgrounds, incorporating photos, and textures.

[heyvern]

I am familiar with both applications. Even though they come from the same company they really aren't "integrated" in any specific way. Manga Studio is primarily a natural brush vector and raster illustration program. It can draw using vectors which can be imported into Anime Studio to some degree, but as Slowtiger says, your best bet is to draw in Anime Studio, or use Manga Studio to "design" characters that you would redraw in Anime Studio.

Manga Studio is a very powerful drawing application and would be worth it if you need a tool for that purpose. As it's name implies, it is intended for "comic book" type creation. There is a whole entire suite of tools dedicated to creating and dividing panels, creating text balloons etc. But it is not limited to that type of work. It is a natural brush type application and one of it's strengths is that it can use vectors with very realistic natural brush effects for easy creation and modification, as opposed to a strictly "raster" based drawing/painting as in Adobe Photoshop. Actually, in my opinion, Adobe Illustrator is "closer" to Manga Studio than Photoshop. However both Photoshop and Illustrator lack many of the cross over features of Manga Studio. When it comes to an intuitive natural feeling drawing application that also has the flexibility and editing of vector based brushes, Manga Studio would be a much better choice than Photoshop or Illustrator.

Anime Studio on the other hand is specifically a vector path animation tool. Manga Studio and Anime Studio are two completely different applications. Importing Manga Studio into Anime Studio would be the same as importing Adobe Illustrator vector files into Anime Studio. Anime Studio allows the import of EPS, SVG or native .AI vector format, however this import will not be "exact" and will most likely not give you a suitable Anime Studio vector for animation. The vectors used in Anime Studio are very different from any other type of vector application. Some clean up will be required and that means learning Anime Studio's unique vector tools. It's often easier and faster to simply "trace" or redraw in Anime Studio. However, having Manga Studio and a stylus input is a great tool for developing those characters first.

One other import option would be image based characters. This would be a "puppet" type use in Anime Studio, with body parts controlled by bones. You could design a character in any paint or drawing application and then split it up into body parts. However the final result is not as "fluid" and flexible as using vectors. Also there is the resolution limitations using image puppets, render times will be higher and you may need higher resolution images if you want to zoom in during a scene.

I still use pencil and paper and scan and trace in Anime Studio. The tools in Manga Studio are fantastic but they go way past what I actually need 90% of the time. If I had more time and a much better Wacom input device I would probably use it more. Until then, pencil and paper works for me.

[Michael221]

WOW! Thanks for the amazing amount of information.

My only concern with drawing in Anime Studio is that I read that the drawing tools weren't that great/intuitive when compared to Photoshop, Manga, or even Toon Boom.

But it sounds like Manga isn't really compatible with ASP. Good to know. I definitely want to move into digital drawing with a tablet and move away from pencil and paper...so scanning into ASP isn't something that sounds too appealing to. Especially because I'd also have to buy a scanner! I'd rather draw digitally to create my characters.

But if you think ASP is all I need to create a show that looks/moves like Shorty Watchin' Shorties, than that sounds pretty good to me.

Slowtiger, what's an example of additional bitmap based software for backgrounds, incorporating photos, and textures that I could use with ASP?

[slowtiger]

Photoshop or Gimp. But you can use whatever you like, as long as you can create PNGs with alpha channel, which is the best format to import into AS.

[InfoCentral]

If you want to use a third party drawing app like Xara and import into an animation program then Anime Studio would not be a good choice. As others has stated the import of images from other programs leaves something to be desired and clean up and take longer than just recreating in AS. Toonboom although harder on the learning curve has excellent third party import. Toonboom has recently come out with their new versions and it is such a mess that even I can't figure out what or where they are going with their products. Major features taken out of some and placed in others. I think its a whole realignment of their product line. I would recommend staying away tell the next development cycle. Try out AS and its drawing tools and finish the tutorials. See how it works out for you. I have a friend over at Nickelodeon who tells me he is learning AS and his boss uses it for small stuff.

[Michael221]

Thanks for the tip on TB InfoCentral...maybe I'll stay away from it from now.

SlowTiger, along with GIMP and Photoshop...do you know if Corel Painter and SAI Paint are bitmap based software that's easily compatible with ASP? I've read great things about those two programs for drawing/painting backgrounds.

[slowtiger]

The "compatibility" is in any case only a matter of file formats. Any program able of reading and writing PNGs with alpha will do.

[Michael221]

Ahhh got it...thanks again Slowtiger!!

[heyvern]

I would say that almost all high end professional vector or raster based applications will be able to save image formats required to import into Anime Studio.

You mentioned your "fear" that Anime Studio's drawing tools might be tricky to learn. Here's my experience:

Before buying "Moho" a few years back, I was a long time user of Adobe Illustrator and Aldus Freehand and Also Flash (Macromedia when I started to use it). Like, version 1 of those apps.

There was definitely something... odd... different... about the behavior of curves in Anime Studio. There were no freaking handles!! Where in god's name had the curve handles gone? What the heck? This is so weird. It was strange and it did take a while to get the hang of it... well... for me I was hooked in just a few days. I downloaded the demo of Moho v4.x... and before the demo even expired I forked over the cash because this was the most amazing, easy to animate application I had used. I just simply loved it. Mainly it was the freaking bones. At the time I was a big fan of Martin Hash's Animation Master (3D). It had bones nearly identical to Moho. There was virtually zero learning curve because they were so similar. Also Animation Master ALSO had unique and "different" curves, just like Moho. Even though they weren't the same at all, I was used to learning a new way to draw.

At the time the other main product for 2D animation was Flash. However, you have to realize something about animation tools like Flash, or Toonboom that animate traditional "bezier" vectors. The nature of those types of curves require more effort to get smooth logical motion with out a ton of key frames, and a bazillion points. Animating in Flash the same way you could animate in Anime Studio... is not easy. The crazy curve handles just don't move the right way.

This is just my opinion or theory, but I think that the type of curves used in Anime Studio are different for a reason. It's not because it's "too hard" to program bezier curves or the developer was trying to be different, it's because the different behavior is intentional to allow the curves to automatically adjust to maintain the shape without having to tweak everything (like curve handles). In Anime Studio the curves or points that control the curves behave in a specific way to achieve the results you can get from it very easily and quickly. If it had the same bezier curves that all those other programs use, it wouldn't stand out. It would lose most of the benefits it currently has. When points move, the direction and expansion of the "handles" are handled "in the background" reshaping and expanding to create a logical shape based on the points relationship to the other points on the shape.

Many have begged for "better drawing tools" specifically saying they want "bezier" curves with handles... uh... well flash has that. Other programs have that. Why is Anime Studio better? It's because of the "odd different" curve behavior. Without that... you just have another "Flash". In my opinion asking for bezier curves in Anime Studio makes no sense. It is because it doesn't use bezier curves that makes it better and easier to use... once you learn how.

The trick then is to realize that curves are different and point placement is different than in other bezier applications. It may feel frustrating when you are use to other applications, but if you can get past that point and learn how to work within the restrictions there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you CAN'T draw in Anime Studio. I can replicate any shape. There is always a way to get a shape to do what I need to do to match anything I can do in Adobe Illustrator or Flash.

When I started getting really good at it, I used Anime Studio for PRINT illustrations, exporting to photoshop, or Flash => Illustrator. I found the drawing tools more intuitive and I could get things done faster in Anime Studio. I actually started to like drawing in Anime Studio. And to this day I still prefer it to drawing in Illustrator.

Just an opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[CartoonM!ke]

As much as I love Manga Studio (I am, after all writing a book on it ) a better app would be SketchbookPro. It can edit and save *Layered* TIFF files, which ASP (and I assume ASD) can import. More importantly, it can also refresh the TIFF file if you've made changes in it via SBP. Alpha channels and such are preserved, so it's my prefered method to use SBP TIFF files as background elements (clouds, sky, the shadow of Galactus... oops wrong forum). I've used SBP for character/model sheets and just opened the TIFF file and hid the views I didn't need, reopened/refreshed the view in ASP and carried on. And it's pretty cheap (comparatively) for what it does. Between that and Pixelator I don't need no stinkin' photoshop.

To add to what Vern said about Illustrator and the drawing tools in AS, I picked up a book titled Vector Art Basic Training, by Von Glitschka. While it's Illustrator specific, what it taught me about drawing vector curves has come in very handy in using AS. Especially when it comes to not over extending curvature. It's better to have a few extra points than to have one point with curvature so high it's impossible to move, much less animate. If your local library has this book, check it out. It's put out by peachPit press.

[Michael221]

Heyvern and CartoonMike, I sincerely appreciate the additional advice. Ok, so it sounds like while the drawing capabilities in ASP might at first seem wonky (especially if you're used to drawing in a different program), they actually make more sense when you learn the WHY and HOW of using them.

Ok, I'll add Sketchbook Pro to the list of potential drawing programs to try out. But maybe it isn't necessary if I can do it all in ASP? Honestly, I'd like to be able to keep it all in one program. But, maybe it's better to harness the strength of different programs to get the best animation?

For example, draw the characters in Sketchbook Pro. Then paint those characters in SAI Paint...and also create and paint backgrounds for my animations in SAI Paint. Then, import it all into ASP, and start animation. But really, before I animate, I should get something like Toon Boom Storyboard to make a clear storyboard of my animated short. Then, after animation is complete, following the storyboard, I send it to After Effects to jazz up the animation with some composition and special effects. Then, I send it all to Final Cut Pro to do any final editing and music scoring.

SHEESH!!! Sounds a little overwhelming...but I guess your bound to use multiple programs to get the best product? I wish I could do it all in one program, or at least...not more than two or three programs.

[Michael221]

Actually, scratch SAI Paint. I just realized I can't use it for Mac...which is what I use.

So honestly, it sounds like the best route to go is, learn to draw my cartoons in ASP. It's best to create the cartoons in the program that I'll be animating them in. Plus, ASP drawing capabilities are pretty kick-ass once I really learn them. (And that cuts out the extended workflow of using a different program to draw in before importing it into ASP).

Then, if I want to paint backgrounds for my animations, I should use something like Corel Painter. Actually the "Lite" version is only $70. Another option would be GIMP...but Corel Painter looks pretty excellent. Then I can import that background into ASP. And viola, I can do an animation. I'm assuming I can paint my characters in ASP as well...or possibly export them into Corel Painter, color them, and then import them back? But yeah, it sounds like ASP can create a complete cartoon character (drawn and painted) from scratch, without the use of a different program.

So in the end, forget Manga. Don't need it. And because I can't use SAI Paint, I'll use Corel Painter (over GIMP or Photoshop) for SlowTiger's suggestion to get an additional bitmap based software for backgrounds, incorporating photos, and textures to complement ASP. And if I really want to create a kick-ass story board...get something like Toon Boom Storyboard. (or just use pencil, paper, and maybe post-it notes to make the storyboards)

So for a newbie starting out with a tablet, does Corel Painter (for painting backgrounds) and ASP (for drawing, coloring, and animating characters) sound like a good combo for my goal of creating, drawing, and animating a show that looks and moves like Shorty Watchin' Shorties? (which was done in Flash)

[slowtiger]

You don't need a special storyboard program. Pen and paper is good enough.

Corel Painter is 429 $ ? If you're able to spend that money, I urge you to take a look at TVPaint. Standard edition is about 600 $. Are you a student yet? In this case it's 50% off. TVP has better drawing tools than Photoshop and is a complete frame-by-frame animation program.

[CartoonM!ke]

Another option is to try out FlipBook Lite (http://www.digicelinc.com). It can have 300 frames, and that's enough for storyboarding, imho. For $80, it's the least expensive way to do storyboards digitally.

But slowtiger's right, paper and pencil's just fine. And in some cases a lot faster and less hassle than going digital. A pencil has no learning curve. There's templates you could google and print them out and draw on them. They can be scanned in and imported into AS for reference.

There's an raster animation app in the Mac App store that could be used to generate storyboards and maybe even characters. It's called Animation Desk. I haven't used it, but it does look like a cheap way to do raster animation.

If your characters are more than just simple "south park" ones, then you will benefit from importing/scanning a drawing of that character that you can trace or recreate in AS. Once you have a character all drawn, making it in AS will be so much easier (i.e. less frustrating) and faster. And it will look less computer-y.

TVPaint is a great app. I have an older version and it still works fine on my Mac OS X 10.7.5. There was a movie about beatrix potter out a few years ago, the animation was (I hear) done in TVP. Lovely colors and washes made it really look like her originals.

If your mac is on OS X 10.6.8 or earlier, you can try Pencil ( http://www.pencil-animation.org ), it's open source and free to use. It's designed for frame-by-frame animation. It's not been updated for some time and may very well be a "dead" app, but it's still usable (if you're not using OS X 10.7 or higher).

I would leave with this one thing, don't get lost in all these "trappings" -- keep it simple and focus on good solid animating skills. Those will transfer to any app.