where´z the pros?

[kdiddy13]

And no, I doubt your incoherent, insulting ramblings are going to provoke anyone into animating something for you.

Hmmm... nutty slashes, self conscious misspellings and bizarro punctation. That takes some real effort. It's as if he was trying to hide something... I stand by my theory.

You know, I'm starting to believe you, Banterfield.

Come on, you can come clean, LM.

[zlimbot]

no one answers my questions
only people don´t like my questions
people complane because i don´twrite like they write
because i use
///////// or ))))))))) and this is bad bad because "That takes some real effort." says banterfield and 2nded bykiddy13.
so i ask the questions again:

does anybody use any of the beyond-the-beginner features of moho????

>>>>why does/should moho make them if no 1 uses them?
>>>>why should moho add bigger,better features if no 1 uses them?????
can´t u discusss my questions instead my styleof writing????
isn´t this an old politicians trick:::: make fun of the messenger to avoid the message?????

[jahnocli]

If the messanger's dressed up like a jester, and shouting in a strange dialect, it tends to distract from the question. If you haven't got an answer, you can assume the answer is no, or people aren't interested in the question. Engaging in what looks like some written form of shouting, with dozens of emoticons, isn't going to engage people.

Picasso once said he wasn't that interested in supplying answers -- he was more interested in asking the right questions. Maybe you could take a leaf out of his book -- he was a professional.

J

[7feet]

Okay, I'll bite.

) embedded scriptz,
--Working on some, but I've been busy doing special effects for a couple of films and it doesn't leave much time to do anything else but sleep. Might do the title sequence for one of them in Moho.

) photoshop files export,
--Ditto. There are a few thing using Photoshop Actions to batch process PSD sequences I really want to try.

) animated line width
--Once again. But that's something I and a number of people had asked for for a while. It will be very handy.

) write scripts (other than about oneperson here)
--There's a few of us. There are a number of people who drop in and ask questions. The questions they ask leads me to believe they are writing pretty complicated stuff, probably for "real" productions. When I'm busy on something, I know that I at least don't have a lot of time to BS. Get the info and get back to work.

) import files that end in .ai
--Yes. Most often for background objects I've built in a 3D app (drawing lots of things in proper perspective can get tiresome) but want as vectors so I can color them in Moho for a consistant look. Also from raster to vector progs, same reason, really.

) Virtual camera: simulate multiple layers of depth with easy-to-use camera tools.
--Abso-f&*$in'-lutely. Place your layers at different Z depths, and just moving the camera side to side, no rolls or rotations, and you have the classic multiplane camera look easy as pie.

) 3D camera: the camera can also move in full 3D, allowing you to move around a scene.
--See above. I have a piece that I've been working on for a while. The "background" is a maybe 4x4 block area of a city, all built 3D style in Moho, that you can fly the camera around in quite nicely, thank you. It looks a little something like this:

Wish I could show some video but I don't have the bandwidth and i takes a helluva long time to render. I'm running one now, maybe I'll slap it up somewhere when it's done. It's based on my neigborhood, except we don't have any mountains in Brooklyn. Needed to do something with the distance.

) Brushes: use different brush styles on line art.
--Not that much so far myself. Some but not reall extensively. Bupaje has come up with some cool uses for brushes, and Barry Baker's eyelash trick is pretty neat, too.

) Layer masking: control and animate the visibility of a layer.
-- Tons. Lighting, shadows, image textures, masking pupils using the shape of the eye and eyelid, insides of mouths. Just tons.
) 3D layers: import 3D models to use as characters or scenery. (most people just play withit i have seen no animationhere.)
--I have a piece based on one of my brothers comics where most of the furniture and incidental props are 3D objects. That was the main reason I wrote my SOS script, to do simple lighting on imported 3D objects. If you are going to be using that good ol' 3D camera to move around a scene, something like a table is much easier to build (simply, mind you) in a 3D app and bring into Moho.

) Automatic lip-sync: you supply the mouth shapes and audio file, Moho animates it.
--I've used it in a pinch, but I really like phoneme based lipsync. I wrote a scipt for it, Pamela, Magpie, and Papagayo can all hook you up for it. The internal, volume based solution is nice and simple, and can do the trick if that's all you need.

That's my set of opinions and experiences.

[zlimbot]

zlimbot note: Since the grammar police and the conspiracy theorists on this forum have a problem with my use of punctuation marks, color and style usage in a sentence (why does Lost Marble offer them if it´s against the rules of the grammar police here to use them?), I have enlisted the aid of a better educated friend to write my newest (and probably last) entry into the Lost Marble forums:

-------------------------
When I was initially introduced to Lost Marble´s Moho animation program I first ventured to the “Share Your Work” forum to look at all the work that was being created with Moho. I was treated to a wide cornucopia of wildly imaginative and colourful work. However, I did notice a lack of work by professional animators and artists and wondered, “Do professional animators even know of or use Moho? Why not?” Thus I posed the question to this forum and was subjected to various forms of haughty derision by the forum members here.
Nevermind, I thought.

I then plunged headfirst into the Moho Tutorials working my way diligently through each and every one. As I worked through the tutorials I went back to the “Share Your Work” forum to see if I could find examples of the various features of Moho I was practicing in the tutorials.
I looked and looked and looked. And then it dawned on me, most of the work displayed in that forum was basic, beginner work: A character(s) moving left and right or up and down across a background.
I rarely could find any examples of any work beyond the basic functions of Moho – drawing a simple line with colored fill, moving the character across the screen and simple bone movements.
Forget the thought that professional animators are using Moho, who was it that owned Moho was even using the beyond-the-basic features of Moho?
Was anyone even using these features of Moho?:
- Embedded scripts,
- Photoshop file (.psd) export,
- Animated line width,
- The writing of scripts for Moho. (Most is done by one very active, genius script writer. You know who you are.),
- The importing of Adobe Illustrator (.ai) files,
- Virtual camera: simulate multiple layers of depth with easy-to-use camera tools,
- 3D camera: the camera can also move in full 3D, allowing you to move around a scene,
- Brushes: use different brush styles on line art,
- Layer masking: control and animate the visibility of a layer,
- 3D layers: import 3D models to use as characters or scenery,
- Automatic lip-sync: you supply the mouth shapes and audio file, Moho animates it.
There are probably more, but I am not totally familiar with Moho.
I was a bit shocked, taken aback, to see that no one (that participates in this forum anyway) was using Moho for much more than basic, simple features.
Why aren´t Moho owners using the other features of the software program?
Why is Moho creating these new features if no one uses them? It would be akin to a car manufacturer adding a snow blower to the front of a car and no one uses it. Why add the function if your customers don´t need it?
Perhaps Moho should offer two version of Moho at different prices; “Moho Basic” with just the basics, and “Moho Pro” with all the newest greatest more advanced features?

I am curious with everyone´s input on this subject and would pose a question to you all:
Which functions of Moho do you not use and why not?
And, a second question: Why should Moho add new features when it appears from the work submitted to this forum that no one is using them?

If you choose not to be a part of the discussion fine. If you choose to get your jollies deriding my questions I pose here, well do have your jolly old fun. Perhaps make a Moho animation of it so we can all get a laugh!

And to you dear conspiracy theorists, sorry, but I do not know of this LM person you discuss.

---zlimbot
(The above was written in proper grammar by her helpful ghostwriter. If the grammar police on this forum have any problems with the grammar and punctuation in this piece, well……do have a nice day! R.A.B.)

P.S. And an added note to Mr. jahnocli - thank you for your warm remarks and valued input in this discussion. I do love all the rather clever Moho animations you have posted and contributed to the forums in the nearly year you have been here.
My all-time favorite of yours is the one which you posted a scant fortnight ago:
http://www.zippyvideos.com/182299850562645.html
Did I miss any others?

[jahnocli]

My, you do have a thin skin, don't you? I always thought that animation software was there to provide you with the means to animate. Call me old-fashioned, but listing features "that no-one uses" and bemoaning the lack of professional Moho gurus kind of miss the point.

I don't feel that I have to justify myself to you, however you want to put it. Get a life.

J

[00moa00]

Zlimbot,
I think i know what you want to say ...I hope

Like I said earlier in this topic I use moho in my everyday job.

But like LM said earlier in this topics we ar not often authorised to diffuse our work and sometimes i don't have the "reflex" to post my works.

I almost post "work in progress stuff" (look on my profile to see my old posts) but just a little piece of the project cause i even need an advise on a precise part of the project.

I try to share my tricks and features request (thanks to LM to take care of these)

Sometimes I have the right to share my work:
in the Moho gallery (lostmarble.com) I've make this comercial:
TV commercial for Valorlux in Luxembourg .
This is an old works (2 years ago is old compare to the MOHO greats evolution of these last years)
But in this works i've use lots of the moho "advanced" features (bones,3D camera,Auto lip sync, mask, particles(for the crowd).....)

On july i've bben going to the MIFA (annecy)
And I've test the "big animations software in last version"....Moho have more advanced functions (in my point of view):
I've tried the tab(funny but for beginners only and big cost (~1000$), pegs...big....frame by frame...
TonBoom (expensive moho clone (bones function were just added))
Sure moho have the potential to be a real good animations software!

The low cost of moho is attractive and this attract lots of young or beginner hobbyist (many members have 16 years old) and they use moho for pleasure not for perfomance..... (but with practice they certainly shift us) that explain the many simple design but cool stories (like spoooze!)

On the other side moho have a professionnal users, essantially freelancer or little studio 'cause big studio (and i know personnaly many of these) work under other soft since many years and the employee have been form under these soft...(dinausaur need adaptative time)
if you search you can find really good pro in the forum but there are less present than the hobbyist for sure...

[Banterfield]

I am curious with everyone´s input on this subject and would pose a question to you all:
Which functions of Moho do you not use and why not?

I've been working on a large project for over a year that uses almost every feature in Moho 4. Since I started the project in Moho 4, I chose not to transfer the work to 5 because the output between the two can be a little different. Nonetheless, I've used some of the scripts from 5 for shot elements and combined them with output from 4 in my editing program (Vegas). So... I don't use many of the features you've listed, but then, my project doesn't require them.

And, a second question: Why should Moho add new features when it appears from the work submitted to this forum that no one is using them?

I think the more professional the work, the less likely it is to show up in a forum. That doesn't mean that a range of advanced features shouldn't exist. It does seem that the more obscure features are less likely to be used. But then, the forum gets used more by novices than by professionals. Perhaps the professionals/advanced users are busier, and don't have time to create short animations featuring the new brush features - just because they can or have used them.

"Why should Moho add new features"?

Personally, I think Lost Marble shouldn't add new features to the product. I think they should polish what they have, and should otherwise begin creating scripts and filters which they would then sell as "plug-in packs" along the lines of what "Kai's Power Tools" have been doing for ages.

I don't think Lost Marble is getting rich selling Moho. They (he) must actually enjoy what they're doing. For all the naysaying and criticism that takes place on this forum, it's a wonder that he's doing it at all. $99 is a steal for software that does what this does, warts and all. But that's my 2 cents.

[Lost Marble]

I think you've gotten several responses to why you don't see much professional work in the "Share Your Work" forum (although there is some, and some of it is very good).

As far as features, almost every feature that goes into Moho has been requested by the users over the years. We're not just adding snowblowers - these are real features that someone wants to use. Sometimes there are feature requests that are kind of bizarre that wouldn't fit well with the Moho design or workflow. We don't just bolt these on and hope for the best. It's actually better to show some restraint and not add new features if they won't integrate well.

If you don't personally see a need for a particular feature, just don't use it. I think all the features you named are pretty unobtrusive if you don't want to use them. For example: masking, animated line width, scripting, PSD export, auto lipsync - I don't think any of these get in your way at all if you choose not to use them. In fact, you would hardly know they're even there.

On the other hand, many of these features are used all the time by both professional and hobbyist users. Some of the features you mentioned are brand new, so it's unlikely that you will see them show up in any animated samples other than quick test animations that were done in less thna an hour.

To sum it up, there are a variety of reasons why you don't see professional animations in the forums (there is some, and you do see them in the gallery), but I don't think anyone can give you one particular answer: the pros may be busy working instead of chatting. They may not have permission from the people who paid for it to show the work. They may not respond well to people who "demand" to see what they've been up to.

On the feature side: If you're new to Moho, just use what you need. As you've been using it longer and on more complex projects you may come to need some of these other things and understand why they're included. If there's a feature you don't like, just ignore it - it'll rarely force itself on you.

[DaleG]

Thank you Lost Marble, and all the helpful people on this forum..

I hope you continue to do what you are doing. I had in my head that I wanted to try animation, and I had NO idea where to begin. I am now convinced that I will be able to acheive my goal of learning animation at an affordable price due to moho and the lost marble forum. I dont know if moho is hoping to be the program of choice for proz.. but I hope they keep doing what they are doing!

THANKS!

[spoooze!]

he low cost of moho is attractive and this attract lots of young or beginner hobbyist (many members have 16 years old) and they use moho for pleasure not for perfomance..... (but with practice they certainly shift us) that explain the many simple design but cool stories (like spoooze!)

Thanks

Anyway, like 00moa00 said, a lot of people here use Moho for the fun of it and animate for a hobby because it's such an easy to use and fun program that can easily produce pretty high quality work even with the simplist of designs. I don't see what's so wrong with that...
But there are quite a few pros that use it. Take a look at the gallery on the Lost Marble main website. Lots of pro animation there (Omar Makover's stuff is the best in my opinion)

Spoooze

[spoooze!]

Thank you Lost Marble, and all the helpful people on this forum..

Yes! Thank you Lost Marble for giving us a not only easy but a FUN program Thanks to you I'll be able to complete the longest movie (25 mins!!) I've ever made!
And many thanks to those who've commented/critiqued on my stuff! You guys are awsome!

Spoooze

[myles]

Oops, I apparently duplicated the message instead of making some minor edits. My apologies. See posting below.

[myles]

Hello zlimbot,

I am curious with everyone´s input on this subject and would pose a question to you all:
Which functions of Moho do you not use and why not?
And, a second question: Why should Moho add new features when it appears from the work submitted to this forum that no one is using them?

On the second question:
It's the well-known 80:20 rule - at least 80% of your work will use at most 20% of a program's features.
Many of these other features are more like a car's reverse gear - not used for most normal work, but essential when it is needed.

Sorry I don't have time to go through each of the many Moho features.
Instead of a list, why not discuss one feature at a time?

Out of your particular list of recent features, I'd say layer masking is now absolutely one of the bread-and-butter features, used very frequently.

Like the multi-talented Brian, I prefer the greater control given by phoneme-matching rather than the volume-based automatic lipsynch script, interesting as it is.

And to you dear conspiracy theorists, sorry, but I do not know of this LM person you discuss.

LM = Lost Marble, the ever-helpful, incredibly patient and tolerant, official support on the forum. That was a little bit of a joke - as shown by the wink emoticon.

zlimbot, I'd like to thank you for the improved style of your last post - I'm not talking about grammar and punctuation, I'm talking about not using large bold text which looks like angry shouting, not using ransom-note font changes that make my eyes feel they are moving like a chameleon's eyes, and not using emoticons like confetti. (In other words, not using the old politicians trick of filling your message with sensationalism and style instead of meaning ). It was much more pleasant to read.

Regards, Myles.

[Squeakydave]

De-cloak

Mwa -Ha ha ha! (Read with an echo)

LM just put my Nic jr Ident on the lost marble site. It is pretty poor quality (Thanks a bunch Nickelodeon!) but shows of some of Moho's advanced features. - 3d, masks, bitmap, textures, particles etc. With any luck these should not be too visible.

As to the plethora of features -As a proffesional you don't know what kind of style the client will demand.. It could be flat colour Flash one day or painterly wobbly line the next. All those seemingly 'not too usefull' features enable me to say 'No problem at all' which is something all Clients seem to like to hear!

Sound of whip cracking. Back to work!

Cloaking on.

Mwa -Ha ha ha! (Read with an even bigger echo!)