using masks in ASP 8 isn't recommended

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superonIII
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Post by superonIII » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:02 pm

Rhoel wrote:
superonIII wrote:...Can you post the red square example so I/we can run it on different systems...
sure, this should be it
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6207043/example.zip

i'm using Mac OS X 10.6.8 mountain goat:/
('cos i'll call it what i like, it is 10.6.8 though)
maybe i just need a lesson in how to disable line stroke.

with me it seems it's either one thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOVMlaYmPaM
or the other
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP4qinPk8QE

appreciating the display
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GCharb
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Post by GCharb » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:24 pm

Same thing here with 8.0.1 on win 7 64bits.
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Rhoel
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Post by Rhoel » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:05 pm

Rhoel wrote:...Can you post the red square example so I/we can run it on different systems...
sure, this should be it
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6207043/example.zip

[/quote]

Thanks - using this file I can create the effect.

This issue relates to the screen filter on the white square layer: if the layer blend is set to normal, no fringing, just a nice clean matte. If the screen is on the red layer and white as normal, no fringing.

The question therefore is why are you using the screen setting? Is there another way around that one layer. As side in an earlier post, can you use the texture image to get the same effect on your rather nice looking zebra?

Rhoel
superonIII
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Post by superonIII » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:10 pm

Rhoel wrote:...This issue relates to the screen filter on the white square layer: if the layer blend is set to normal, no fringing, just a nice clean matte. If the screen is on the red layer and white as normal, no fringing.

The question therefore is why are you using the screen setting? Is there another way around that one layer. As side in an earlier post, can you use the texture image to get the same effect on your rather nice looking zebra?

Rhoel
the screen filter aberration here is just one example, in this situation i might want to use the filter so the shadow of the mask vector would show through the colour being masked, especially useful when blending between 2 layers, sure there are work arounds, the ones i've tried come with their own set of masking issues.
also the are no layer blending modes introduced to the video examples.
trying to keep things simple but i don't know the terminology to use.

i'd rather keep the image as vectors for cleanliness, and apart from that i'll be reproducing work i've already created, i don't see how making it into a png should make things any better but if it does it sucks but that's the way i guess i'll have to think.
for now though, i'm still working at trying to keep it clean.
everything comes with a draw-back i s'pose, the image masking example would be the way the image "folds" in on itself (see frame 6 of the 4.4 final.moho), it can be fixed though with a compromise, as yet i don't know what's going to be easier in the long-run.
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Rhoel
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Post by Rhoel » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:43 pm

Part of my suggestion comes from a similar character I have which does use image textures - in earlier versions (prior to 7), there was a significant bug affecting HD images.

In 8 you have the ability to re-size and position image textures, negating the earlier off-register problem: This put my project back on the development table as I now had the tools to do the job. Image textures are especially useful since you can stack two transparent images, meaning a base texture surface plus a transparent shadow layer to create a very interesting effect.

Unless you need to animate the surface, texture images at 300dpi render well.

Maybe others will be able to find a hack to this masking issue.

Rhoel
Rudiger
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Post by Rudiger » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:58 am

This masking issue was introduced in 8.0.1, so if it's giving you problems, I recommend just going back to the original version 8.0. I don't think it had any show-stopping bugs in it.

With regards to the 8.0 masking issue that you demonstrated in your YouTube video, perhaps you can just get around it by organising your masks differently:
masking case 8.0.png
masking case 8.0.anme

If there really are two masking issues that can't be solved simultaneously, hopefully they can give us an option to choose the behaviour that best matches the situation.
superonIII
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Post by superonIII » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:45 am

Rudiger wrote:This masking issue was introduced in 8.0.1, so if it's giving you problems, I recommend just going back to the original version 8.0. I don't think it had any show-stopping bugs in it.

With regards to the 8.0 masking issue that you demonstrated in your YouTube video, perhaps you can just get around it by organising your masks differently:
...

If there really are two masking issues that can't be solved simultaneously, hopefully they can give us an option to choose the behaviour that best matches the situation.
3 good points, i'm still trying to find a way to produce consistent results through my work, i have given-up on 8.0.1, as the masking issue is just way too obvious, i'm yet to experience any of the "bone setting" bugs or whatever from 8.0 so i'm sort of happy to be using 8.0 right now.
the major thing would be that if the masks don't behave as they should then i'm likely teaching myself a way of doing something that's going to be ruined by every other update that comes out for anime studio pro 8 too.

i can get around the issue in the first example by simply rearranging the structure of the layers and groups, that way a very simple example of aberration. the way i'm thinking about working now involves building 2 masks and 3 layers to be masked for each "limb", in this example the first mask is invisible, whilst the second subtracts from the first.
the first visible layer contains a base colour, the second contains a pattern and the third contains high and low lighting.

the difference can be seen more clearly if 2 groups are set up, one using a hidden mask (masking all the details in higher layers) and one that uses the "base colour" and its area as the mask. in the two examples (using the same size mask for each) you should notice that scaling them or simple just rendering them will produce an image where the two are significantly different in scale (becomes more obvious still when rendered at about 100 px.
the fix for this seems to be to make the mask slightly smaller than the area it will contain or having the "contained" area slightly larger, either way, when animating and or making slight differences to shape afterwards i find i would have to alter both shapes now.

part of a recent reply on this subject in which i asked if there could be a "legacy masks" option introduced to future updates:
"...It comes down to picking the lesser of two evils - which of these two masking bugs will cause the most problems for the most number of people? No matter which choice is made, some users will suffer, but ultimately there will hopefully be fewer people suffering if the bigger of the two bugs is the one that is fixed. The engineers have very tight deadlines, so my guess is that they wouldn't be able to devote time to purposefully reintroduce a bug that will cause a bigger masking problem for the majority of the users."

so it seems that 8.0.1 is a "fix" rather than a mistake:(

i suggest that moving a problem isn't the same as solving it.

i could easily reduced the amount of fatalities by motor-vehicle accidents to zero by re-classifying them from motor-vehicles to tents... problem solved overnight:) of course this has now been off-set by a huge increase in the amount of tent related fatalities
obviously this is a farcical example.

my biggest concern here is that the majority of users appear not to see this masking issue as a problem for them, i can't get my head around the "how" of it. i'd suggest that it's either because the majority use outlines or that the majority don't use version 8.0.1.

sorry if this post appears confused, quite a lot of the words required are failing me. i'll post another example in due time, this is taking longer than necessary as my head's getting beffudled so will have to be happy with string without achieving...

---
it's going to be a busy weekend... with all this thinking about stuff
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Rudiger
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Post by Rudiger » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:23 am

I think it is both a fix and a bug. Masking without outlines has worked since I first started using Moho 6 years ago. I doubt the developers would have knowingly broken it just to fix some other issue.

I'm hoping that that the old behaviour can either be restored or, like you said, a "legacy mask" option can be added.
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NeedyN00b
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Post by NeedyN00b » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:51 pm

just smashed head first into this exact issue. so frustrating.

if superonIII comes up with a different way of masking, please let me know. thanks.
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NeedyN00b
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Post by NeedyN00b » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:44 pm

NeedyN00b wrote:just smashed head first into this exact issue. so frustrating.

if superonIII comes up with a different way of masking, please let me know. thanks.
I just down-graded to AS Pro 8.0 from 8.0.1 and the masking problem is fixed.
superonIII
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Post by superonIII » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:19 pm

NeedyN00b wrote:just smashed head first into this exact issue. so frustrating.
...
I just down-graded to AS Pro 8.0 from 8.0.1 and the masking problem is fixed.
downgrading seems to be the second best fix so far (the first best would be to not use masking), just because the original "fix" is so messy. with 8.0 you'll still get issues with masks in groups with other masked layers though.
like you say it's very frustrating:( are you a mac user too? it seems this might be specific to my OS or something, i don't know.

i'm still hoping for an update that fixes the masking issues, but it does appear to be unlikely forthcoming:(
i'd love to include masking seamlessly in my work, but until the tech happens to allow this it seems i'll have to continue to be frustrated too.

adding a little more i'd like to ask if subtracting from a mask only works when the original mask is set to invisible?
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chucky
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Post by chucky » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:52 am

I've had a couple of instances where masks just don't work at all, can't post files though - way too image heavy and also the old non disclosure prevents.
No time to recreate either.
Sequential offender.
my latest animations
Rudiger
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Post by Rudiger » Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:45 am

Does anyone know if this issue was mentioned in the recent 8.1 Webinar?
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funksmaname
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Post by funksmaname » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:00 pm

it wasn't... and I didn't know enough about it to ask.
superonIII
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Post by superonIII » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:31 pm

i'm not going to let it go, come on techie-bods, do more than a little looking and sort it out some time... please?
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