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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:57 am
by InfoCentral
Yeah, nice touches on the character.

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:43 pm
by GCharb
For those who do not follow my blog, I have posted a short video where I am testing a new rig for the Sally character.

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:46 am
by madriver
Awesome GCharb. Love the way you lock certain parts like an IK rig in 3D.

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:37 am
by GCharb
madriver wrote:Awesome GCharb. Love the way you lock certain parts like an IK rig in 3D.
Thanks, that's what you get when You work 15+ years in 3D and mix it with 30+ years in 2D. :)

Working on the head rig at the moment, even more fun!

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:31 am
by InfoCentral
Looking real good...

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:43 pm
by GCharb
Thanks infocentral.

Will work on the assets for the time being, as this should speedup the creation of the videos when I am done!

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:48 pm
by crsP
Your video clearly shows the ik will be unstable during animation. You also have too many bones, or wrong bone placement, as the chest messes up during movement. There are already videos on making these cut-out style rigs, so why are you doing another? Your other posts advocate a less restricted workflow to AS animations, so how comes you choose to do this type of 'rig'?

I'm being critical because, firstly you are charging, so you have an obligation to show a workflow that is more practical [and keep in mind your comments in posts such as 22364646464645's and others], and also there seems to be an influx or people doing AS tutorials, with some being uninformed and passing on bad habits to viewers. E.g a 'teacher' insisted that in AS you MUST make shapes in the order you create, which is obviously untrue. Obviously you probably read the manual, so know these basics, but your video is showing error in the rig, which you don't address. Which makes me think you're not even aware of them.

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:10 pm
by GCharb
Hello there and hi to You too! :)

Could You expand on why You think the rig looks unstable?

As mentioned on my blog, I will show a simple rig and a more advanced rig.

Why You say there are too many bones or wrong bone placement or that the chest messes up, since I do not show the rig in the video?

And please make me aware of my mistakes in my rig, so I can correct them.

In my blog I think I mentioned that this was an early rig, though You can correct me if I am wrong.

You say that there are already tutorials on making rigs, and ask why I am making another one of those, well, why not, You think there is too many information on rigging on the forum?

You seem to think I am giving bad advice, well, look at my blog, go through my tutorials and let me know if I have an habit of giving bad information or advice, please, let me know and I will gladly make changes or retract myself, as I have no intention of giving out bad information.

I have done animation with no rig at all, so yes, I do know the value of a small and simple rig, but I also believe that a more advanced rig may help in many circumstances, but please, do correct me if I am wrong.

I am being curious of your comments because I am charging, and because of that I am opened to any constructive criticism that could help improve my work.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:30 pm
by crsP
I didn't see the bones but I guessed from the pivot rotation and deformations as to the placement. The chest bone is either too high up or you have two bones in the chest, which is not a good idea. there should not be bending up there. Of course it is animation and not real life, but, because of the way AS bones work, you don't get a smooth enough transition in deformations so the creases are sharp and makes the figure look bad. Having one chest bone with a lower pivot will give better deformation.

The unstable IK I refer to is the leg bending as you rotated the hips. I'm guessing you used the capricon ik script as you are able to move the feet, but I bet it would happen with locked bones, as I have seen in my usage. The flipping of the knee will occur in the inbetweens if you keyframe two positions near where it starts to wig out. This will normally be handled with a pole vector, but the script doesn't support it.

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:48 pm
by GCharb
Ok, so the messing up of the chest is the deformation of the breast as I moved the bones there, and my rig is unstable because of the knee flipping, which is similar to the gimbal lock that happens in 3d animation software.

Seems a bit thin to imply that i am passing bad information, don't You think! :)

I solved the chest problem since, and the flipping is sort of inevitable in that sort of rig, not a big thing really, as You can animate no problem even with this type of limitation and I see no reason to think that it will be unstable for animation.

You refer to other peoples passing false information to users on the forum, have You ever witnessed any such type of misbehavior from my part, and if yes, please point me to it so I can apologize and rectify this as soon as possible.

Also, I decided to show a more involved rig at the demand of some users, was not part of the initial plan, and I do advocate simplicity in animation, as I do believe it is the best way to do things, but many peoples also like a more technical approach and I did ask for suggestions for the set.

Again, I do appreciate any help You offer!

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:51 pm
by crsP
GCharb wrote: Seems a bit thin to imply that i am passing bad information, don't You think! :)
How can I imply that when you haven't released anything yet? Had you release in that form then you would have found a different post to the one you got, believe me. You can't seriously tell me that you have fixed this issue in private and expect me to know that. I based my critique on what you provided. The two-bone chest setup is not a good idea in 3d rigs either, and the results of rotation shows that. That is an undeniable observation. So is the shaky leg. You can't assume because of your years of 3d software experience that an AS user will be able to pass this instability off as 'normal'. Someone who would be knowledgeable of these things would not need a tutorial on how to rig this way. And it is only, 'inevitable' using that script with the way Anime Studio handles bones. You can get stable IK leg rigs in Blender for example, and not worry about flipping in the inbetweens. Sure you can animate with unstable IK - you just avoid moving the rig in problematic positions. But that makes the rig even more restrictive and will lead to stiff and boring animation, especially from your students, who are not expecting this. In your video you go carefully to try to avoid these problems, but if, as you say, this is a test of the rig, a real test is to put the rig in [practical] extreme positions, then you are likely to see the real problems in the rig. This is not my invention, this is just how rig testing is done. If you want to see the problem in animation, just key the movements - it will behave in the same rules as your realtime motions, because it's just a mathematical problem the computer is having trying to figure out which direction the user wants the bones to follow.

Also Was talking about video tutorials in general - never mentioned anyone else on this forum. I don't read all threads and comments, and am not going to police anyone, but if I come across some mis-information, I'll challenge. So be warned.

Can't really 'read' you as you say you want feedback but are very defensive and get passive-aggressive in your reply to the comments. You can't fault my critique - you admit you have changed the chest bone, and you made the decision to show this setup. Find it hard to believe you would demonstrate the problematic rig and not your newly fixed one. Don't worry, other people hate it when I am right too.


Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:57 pm
by GCharb
To be frank, I got on the defensive because in your criticism of my work, which I am fine with for the most part, You refer to other peoples misleading others with false or erroneous information, which tends to imply that I am doing it too, I could quote You on that.

You are referring to some of the post I made in the past to justify some of your criticism on the fact that I am showing a more complex rig, but You did not refer to my posts on the rig itself, where I clearly state that this is an early rig and that the decision to make a more advanced rig was made after the initial project was launched.

You make what You call, undeniable observations, on a rig You have not seen, only because You felt that it worked a certain way.

The gimbal lock problem brought by this type of rig is due mostly to the fact that the software gets confused because of an impossible situation, and not knowing how to deal with it, so it flips the bones.

The thing is, in real life, with or without the rig, that situation is still impossible to solve, in the sense that You just cant bend the bone in certain ways, at least not unless lots of scripting is involved, this is a fact that any experienced "rigger" understand.

By saying "Which makes me think you're not even aware of them" You imply that I do not know what I am talking about, which is not true, I do know my stuff, and You may think You have all the answers, but the truth is that no one does, the difference between You and I is that I know that fact and learned to work with it and learn to better myself in the process.

The bottom line is, I have worked hard in helping this community and share some of my experience, as I learned from it as well, been doing this type of community service for as long as I have been on the Web.

Several peoples have put their trust in me, and I deeply thank them for it, and the last thing I want is someone telling them that I do not know what I am talking about, because a reputation is build over time and trust, but can be destroy in an instant.

I would appreciate if You could refrain from making uninformed comments and verify the facts before You criticize, as it can do damage to peoples, I know I try to!

Again, I do appreciate criticism, as it allows Us to improve, but I appreciate a bit of discernment as well!

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:27 pm
by jahnocli
crsP wrote:Don't worry, other people hate it when I am right too.

...and you accuse other people of being defensive?

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:43 am
by InfoCentral
crsP wrote:Obviously you probably read the manual, so know these basics, but your video is showing error in the rig, which you don't address. Which makes me think you're not even aware of them.
Now that wasn't very nice...and certainly not the constructive criticism you exclaim your providing. I would venture to say more on the condescending tone to me. It just goes to show you that whenever someone steps out into the light there is someone who wants to try to break the bulb.

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:42 am
by AmigaMan
crsP wrote:Don't worry, other people hate it when I am right too.

That has to be one of the most childish things I've read on this forum. Gilles knows his stuff, of that I have no doubt and the fact he is producing this series of tutorials and at such a bargain price is to be applauded and encouraged.
The IK in GCharbs video was acting exactly as expected and was perfectly normal.