Wants and Wishes for 5.5 or beyond...

General Moho topics.

Moderators: Fahim, Distinct Sun, Víctor Paredes, erey, Belgarath, slowtiger

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Víctor Paredes
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Post by Víctor Paredes » Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:19 pm

Ramón López wrote:I always have wanted that the "little eyes" icon in Layers window to hide/mostrate Layers look at the direction of the mouse cursor meantime it moves!
jajajaja. I agree with that (just with that) (mmm... not, really i agree with all, although im not sure about illumination)
and, talking seriously, the visible or not visible layer should be more intelligent.
for example, switch visible/invisible layer just dragging the mouse over the layer eyes (just like you select the bones).
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slowtiger
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Post by slowtiger » Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:59 pm

That's a long wish list for sure, and I would agree to some points (most of all: animatable depth sorting of layers!).

However, it seems to me that the wishes go in different directions. There's one group dealing with automation and scripting: that would be, in my opinion, not too difficult to do since it's embedded in Moho from the beginning. And it would make Moho a more powerful tool to produce everyday bread-and-butter animation like talking sequences in series and stuff.

Another group is dealing with Special FX and beautifying the animation once it's done. Personally I have no need for that, and I think this field already is covered by several programs on the market.

Then there's the group of wishes which I'd like to call "the all-in-one-solution", the things which would make the use of other programs like editing software and the like obsolete. Again, I'd say leave this to other programs which specialise in that.

In my opinion, Moho's advantage is its restriction to not too many features, but be very good in it. Improving the links to other software would help to establish its status as a powerful tool you can't do without. But I'm used to work in a production environment where you use just any software available to get your desired result. Somebody who uses Moho as only animation and filmmaking software has, of course, different needs.
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Post by slowtiger » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:24 pm

And here, of course, my own wishlist, picking up some ideas of others:

1. Animatable depth sorting of layers. (I did mention this before, did I? *gg*)

2. Multiple audio tracks, but with the added functionality of assignig each of them its own Papagayo file which controls a defined group of layers. This would enable Moho to deal with multi-speaker scenes. Or does somebody already have another solution for it?

3. I could imagine a not so complicated improvement of brushes by adding a control panel where you assign a whole range of brush images as one brush. Adding a slider for randomness in changing these images, maybe some trick (just by naming order) to have one brush image apear most of the time and the one on the opposite of the range only every nth time ... ?

4. Sometimes I'd like to have more control over transformations like resizing or rotating a layer. A simple switch on/off of the numerical information would be helpful, and luxurious if to be controlled by typing in the numbers or script that stuff (I believe this already is possible, but I haven't touched scripting so far). The need for this amount of control exists when you do a bigger project of several scenes in Moho, or if you work with several people on the same project. An example: So far I found it hard to achieve the very same look of line thickness in different scenes. I always waste time in experimenting with the settings of line thickness, size comparison and resizing layers.

5a. For those who need to have Flash output it would be nice to have two features. Right now the trick to export with half the framerate is the only way to reduce file size. I can imagine something like a switch in the timeline, which uses the existing onion skin interface, but this time to select the frames to be exported, in a way that each marked frame is exported, and the unmarked left out. (Add a button to invert the selection as well!) This way, one could export the important keys only, each stretched over time until the next one. This should work for Quicktime/AVI output as well, resulting in a true "animating on twos" look (or any other interval, but most importantly not bound to only one interval fo a whole scene). Working with a steady frame rate of 24 fps (or what else you prefer), one could do fast animation on ones, the remaing stuff on twos or even threes, and having true holds over any desired number of frames.

5b. Is there a way to translate levels with no point animation as symbols in Flash? My actual project uses a true cutout style, so I hoped this was possible. It was mentioned somewhere else that bone animation was different from layer transformations. But from my rudimentary understanding of mathematics I'd say it should be possible to translate the one kind into the other? Of course this depends on the internal representation of data, a field where I have no knpowledge whatsoever of, and if you say "it's impossible" I will believe it ... Maybe this could be done in a special section inside the "Export" panel, something like "optimise for Flash", where it starts a complicated script. It could be time-consuming, but who cares, an operation like this you only perform once in a while with the finished animation.

6. All those additional options tend to confuse users. I suggest the introduction of an overall interface concept which I've seen in other programs: a standard "pro" button which reveals the more sophisticated controls. This way, Moho would appear as easily understandable to a novice user, while still have all the powerful control points on the inside. (In fact, last week we talked about doing a Moho workshop for kids ...)
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Hey!

Post by Nichod » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:59 pm

I still didn't purchase Moho. After evaluating it, it just didn't suite my needs. If the drawing and coloring tools were better and resulted in a rendering that didn't shift/etc then I'd buy Moho at this moment. It needs flash like handling of drawing and coloring.

Its sad. Flash has become so bloated that its a pain to animate in, but it has the drawing tools that make creations look amazing. And Moho has an amazing set of animation tools, but poor drawing tools.

LM if you are listening, fix this one thing and you have at least one more buyer.
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Post by Toontoonz » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:39 pm

And yet on June 23, 2005 you (Nichod) wrote:
"...To me I love the drawing tools. I see some room for improvement, especially as far as brushes are concerned. But they are very nice to work with. ...."
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtop ... sc&start=0


I remember because I was complaining...er, disscussing....about how Moho´s drawing tools basically sucked and you kept telling me I was wrong and Moho´s tools were so great. What happened?
:D
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Post by myles » Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:59 am

Hello slowtiger,
slowtiger wrote:4. Sometimes I'd like to have more control over transformations like resizing or rotating a layer. A simple switch on/off of the numerical information would be helpful, and luxurious if to be controlled by typing in the numbers
When you are using layer rotation and scale tools, you should see numerical boxes at the top of the main workspace, and you can type into them.
Note: you must have both the correct layer and the correct tools selected.
slowtiger wrote:5b. Is there a way to translate levels with no point animation as symbols in Flash?
This is done automatically if you don't use point animation or direct bone animation of points (the default setup).
Bone animation where you bind an entire layer to an individual bone is okay.
If you see a red dot beside a vector layer symbol in the Layers window, it should export as a symbol. If you don't see a red dot, something is potentially warping the layer.
slowtiger wrote:was mentioned somewhere else that bone animation was different from layer transformations. But from my rudimentary understanding of mathematics I'd say it should be possible to translate the one kind into the other?
Only if you bind entire layers to individual bones in a skeleton. Moho also enables you to have different bones in a skeleton controlling different points on the same layer, as an alternative to point animation.
slowtiger wrote:6. All those additional options tend to confuse users. I suggest the introduction of an overall interface concept which I've seen in other programs: a standard "pro" button which reveals the more sophisticated controls. This way, Moho would appear as easily understandable to a novice user, while still have all the powerful control points on the inside. (In fact, last week we talked about doing a Moho workshop for kids ...)
By removing files from the "C:\Program Files\Moho\scripts\tool" folder and removing their corresponding toolbar entries in the _tool_list.txt file in the same folder, you can have a simplified toolbar. Just make a backup copy of the entire folder first.

Regards, Myles.
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slowtiger
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Post by slowtiger » Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:56 am

:oops: It's always nice to be pointed to obvious things. My only apology is that I test another application at the same time right now, so this tends to mix up things a bit ...

However, there must be something I haven't done the way Myles would have done it, since I work on a project which uses layer binding only, but the red dots vanished as soon as I was building the character. Shouldn't it be that anything I do in frame 0, like testing the movement, don't upset the little dot? The way I work, I can't prevent myself from just grab anything on the screen and move it around just for curiousity. I know that I did that once I had the bones set up but still no layer attached to them - did this already cause The Vanishing of the Red Dot, although it happend in frame 0 only?
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Post by kasjorg » Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:35 am

What I really think you guys have left out a bit is that better timeline control - being able to copy the animation of an entire layer and it´s sublayers and pasting them! Being able to put keyframes in all the channels in a layer and it´s sublayers with a single click- if I want to hold a pose for some frames! Oh and some more possibilities in the interpolaced switch layers etc. interpolaced line width!

ohhhh this will be the ulitamtive 2d animation program:)
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Post by heyvern » Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:53 pm

I would lean towards "tightening up" some of the features already in Moho rather than anything... "new".

Key framing as mentioned above. Need a master time line.

Additional scripting access. Like a double click if it is possible. Double click and possibly right click, added into the lua scripting would really be nice for custom tools. Right click is kind of locked up with the page scrolling...

Interpolation for switches. You can work around this but man... that one change alone would really be powerful. Save a ton of work and open up new possibilities.

Everything else... well... it would be nice but... I have learned from other programmers what a nightmare new features are... so... I try to keep my wish list simple as possible so I won't be disappointed.

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Post by Nichod » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:05 pm

I remember because I was complaining...er, disscussing....about how Moho´s drawing tools basically sucked and you kept telling me I was wrong and Moho´s tools were so great. What happened?
I changed my mind. :-d

Really its not the drawing tools. Its the brushes and fill options that are horrible. But if you are going to fix them....might as well make the drawing tools more like drawing tools and less like a bezier pen tool.
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Post by LostAndFound » Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:07 pm

I have seen the improvement in each Moho version since first version I guess. I am not a direct user, my wife is, and she says that what she loves more about Moho is how simple it is.
By now I do not have a specific request but my suggestion is "keep Moho simple". Do not add a bunch of tools to complicate animator’s life, try to improve what Moho already has, and if it is possible try to make it simpler.

One characteristic I like about Moho is: Moho is not copy of other software. Moho is different, it uses an original approach. That is nice


More does not mean better
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Post by Ramón López » Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:11 pm

LostAndFound wrote:...my suggestion is "keep Moho simple". Do not add a bunch of tools to complicate animator’s life, try to improve what Moho already has, and if it is possible try to make it simpler.
But it sounds like a not very interesting challenge, isn't? Maybe In that way anyone coud have a very easy piece of software, take any app and reduce his features to the five or ten per cent, then you'd get a very easy to learn (even for women! ;)) software, of course... But I think that the real merit is offer to the user the all (as far as possible) necesary features to work propertly and even so maintain it easy, intuitive and understandable. I hope Moho go in this way because, precisely, most of times the lack of some specific features it complicate all instead make more easy and quick or intuitive... Well, is that I think :) ...CIAO!

PS: And yes, I understand what are you meaning, cause finally I always have loved Moho too for his simplicity in essence, but not at the expense of necessary features...
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Post by LostAndFound » Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:12 pm

The real challenge here is how to keep Moho simple and at the same time satisfy client’s demands?

My point is, let’s try not to integrate Photoshop inside Moho that would be mess
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Post by Ramón López » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:09 pm

Then... WE AGREE?? :D Hmmm... I don't know if I've understood exactly what you mean :roll:

PS: Sorry... :)
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Post by rylleman » Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:29 pm

Ramón López wrote:...for his simplicity in essence, but not at the expense of necessary features...
Well spoken. Even if there is a point in keeping Moho simple LM shouldn't hold back nessesary features and fixes because they might make Moho a bit more complicated for the hobbyist users.

My wishlist;
1. referenses or instances that can be shared between scenes.
2. proper interpolation (see Rhoels threads;here and here)
3. nah, those two first ones would keep me happy until Moho 7.0 (I will probably regret that remark later...)
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