Waiting to upgrade? Tell me why!

General Moho topics.

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Tori
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Post by Tori »

digitalartguru wrote:
digitalartguru wrote:
Tori wrote:Hopefully we can create a stronger relationship with you all going forward, and remedy some of your concerns.

Happy Monday!
Amen to that! I am hoping for the best. Thanks Tori.
Tori,

If there is going to be an update on the character wizard soon, so that we can also customize our own bodies ( a true character wizard ), please let us know a.s.a.p. If this happens, I will not request a refund on AM8 Pro. This is the only major improvement attempt that ( if completed properly ), can be worth the full upgrade price. All of the other improvements are very minor or can be accomplished in other ways.
A fair discount for this version 8 upgrade will also persuade me to keep it.

Otherwise, I will just get a refund and wait until the next release which I am hoping for it to be more of a full release will better features and most importantly bug fixes and improvements.

I am looking forward to a new improved relationship with SM. Let's make Anime Studio the best it can be! :)

Thanks again!
I don't have any news on a discount or development yet - if you get your refund, you don't necessarily have to wait until the next version - just until we can make those happen. :) Unfortunately, I don't know the time line for that, so to be safe, if you're really unhappy with your purchase, make sure to return it within 30 days. I don't want anyone with a product they don't need or want. (Also a quick note to say that while we try and make a compelling reason to upgrade every time, I understand that sometimes, especially as a hobbyist, you're happy creating with the tools you have, and I can't be sad about that and am still very happy to have those people in the community.)

Also, I already got a bunch of responses to my forwarded messages this morning, saying that the team is looking forward to talking more to the Pro users and working on how to address your issues. So we've already got momentum. Just remember to be patient, I don't have a magic wand tool in real life!
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digitalartguru
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Post by digitalartguru »

Tori wrote: Also, I already got a bunch of responses to my forwarded messages this morning, saying that the team is looking forward to talking more to the Pro users and working on how to address your issues. So we've already got momentum. Just remember to be patient, I don't have a magic wand tool in real life!
That is fantastic! Like I said, like many others, I am looking forward to these improvements.

It's not the I am unhappy with my purchase,I just cannot justify the full cost of the upgrade in the state that AS8 Pro is at right now when I compare it to version 7 Pro ( which I already have ).

I purchased AS8 Pro to see for myself what everyone is talking about. Its the fare thing to do. This way I can provide intelligent and well researched feedback. Now I know.
I'll wait a few more days to request the refund (before 30 days), I will re-purchase once AS8 Pro is improved.

Thanks Tori and thanks to the AS development team. Keep us posted.
st8
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Post by st8 »

Hi Tori,

I have been using ASP since it was Moho. I'm a big fan of Mike's work, which I support by purchasing upgrades.

Not every upgrade has been incredible. Some problems persisted and I've even seen a useful feature get lost along the way. But clearly there have been major improvements over the years and it's obvious that Mike takes a lot of pride in his creation. His great work helps make my work better. So keep up the good work, Mike!

With version 7, for what I've been primarily using it for lately (scientific visualization/illustration), things had been running fairly smoothly - noticeably better than previous versions. For example, I really appreciate that animating to a narration track in the timeline has improved to the point of decent usability. Text rendering has become more accurate. I was also happy to see multi-processor support added, even though it seems to be limited (unless I'm overlooking something).

I sent Mike a few requests earlier this year. It doesn't appear that any of them have yet been addressed in version 8, so please consider them for version 8.1 (please don't make us wait for 9).

1) Please support ALL cores and multi-threading for animation rendering. Version 7 uses only 4 of the cores on my Mac Pro. There are 8 cores there (and, due to the multithreading support, 16 CPU meters showing in Activity Monitor's display). Half of my cores are IDLE during rendering.

2) Bring back the algorithmic texturing feature (the one simple noise texture that used to be included a few revs back was surprisingly useful). Also, please consider adding other algorithmic texture choices.

3) Could the Layer Settings window remember the tab you were last using for each layer? For example, when experimenting with 3D settings, it would save having to click the 3D tab every time I open the window. It currently always opens on the general tab.

Thanks!
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digitalartguru
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Post by digitalartguru »

@st8 Good suggestions!

I would like to see an Adobe Illustrator file import ( with layers ), just like they did with photoshop with AS8 Pro
and have the character wizard be a full character creation and archiving tool. Including bodies, etc.

I agree that version version 8.1 should be the next move.

Cheers
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capricorn33
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Post by capricorn33 »

Tori wrote: Also, I already got a bunch of responses to my forwarded messages this morning, saying that the team is looking forward to talking more to the Pro users and working on how to address your issues.
This is wonderful news! Thanks, Tori. :-)
capricorn ( - just call me "cap")
children's tv pro, character animator
dh216832
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Post by dh216832 »

I use AS7 as a hobby. I've used the sw since AS5, but these days I travel a lot. So when this was released I wasn't even paying attention. Last night (not kidding), I picked up my XOOM and noticed an upgrade special in my gmail account. The email was dated June 11, but it was 10:45pm on June 12th (and yes, I'd been using the xoom at various times throughout the day).

So I look at the offer and notice...its over in 2.45 hrs. Too tired to see why I even would want to upgrade last night, hence I'm on here now after work. So I lose $30 if I upgrade now, and wonder why the upgrade window was sooooo short.

Even if I got the email on June 11, that just seems a little like "hey look, move fast or we'll ask for another $30". Come on, my wife didn't even have time to see if she wanted to give it to me for Father's Day. Strange marketing SM.

Regards,

dh
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digitalartguru
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Post by digitalartguru »

dh,

You may want to read what is being said about AS8 before you upgrade to see if its worth your investment. For a lot of us ( the way it is now ) it isn't ( at least at the current upgrade cost ). It needs work work done to it. You may want to wait until the next version or until AS8 is improved.
barryem
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Post by barryem »

Tori wrote:I'm here to advocate for you, but I'm also here to communicate for the awesome teams inside too - who really do care. I think that's part of it too - the motivations of the people behind this product are really great...and I agree and think we can do a better job of showing you that we're moving in the right direction. I've found over the years with the Poser community that information is power, and sometimes you have to ask what the perception is to help shift it. So that's why I wanted to pop in and see what the conversation was before I tried to find a message to share.
I'd like to suggest something you might do to soothe some feelings here. You've read the complaints and you've said you'll pass them on and you've said that you can't discuss future plans or features, all of which is understandable, at least to me.

But could you discuss some of the complaints of the past? Could you go through some of the things people complained about in previous versions that didn't get changed or added in later versions or the latest version and say something about those that were discussed and rejected? And maybe talk a little about why the developers chose to add certain features?

I realize there will be much you can't say but what about those things you can tell us? Not secret stuff. Just the things you are able to discuss.

It's one thing for you to come forward and ask what we're thinking and that probably is a good marketing technique and may very well also be because you do care, as you say. But it's a lot more important to your users and customers, I think, to have some kind of idea about the thinking over there.

Probably if you do say why you rejected some features you'll get a bit of heated disagreement but I think you might also build a bit of trust.

Barry
Rudiger
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Post by Rudiger »

Another idea that I've seen posted on this and other forums before is to start a new version of the software, named Anime Studio Advanced or Anime Studio X, or something like that (I'm no marketing expert). It would be a bit like Poser Pro, which I'm sure you are familiar with :), in that it would add all of the features required by professionals and demanding hobbyists and have a fairly hefty price tag.

It would also be best if it had a completely separate release schedule to Debut and Pro. This would still let you keep on releasing a new version of Anime Studio Debut and Pro every year, but only release a major version of the advanced version when one was absolutely warranted, and only release minor versions in the meantime.

Of course, if a really good feature was introduced to Debut or Pro, this could be passed up to the advanced version, and vice versa.
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digitalartguru
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Post by digitalartguru »

Rudiger wrote:Another idea that I've seen posted on this and other forums before is to start a new version of the software, named Anime Studio Advanced or Anime Studio X, or something like that...
I get what you are saying, but Anime Studio Pro is the "Anime Studio Advanced" version. No reason to get too complicated with too many versions. It just needs to be improved and fixed.

Cheers
Rudiger
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Post by Rudiger »

digitalartguru wrote:
Rudiger wrote:Another idea that I've seen posted on this and other forums before is to start a new version of the software, named Anime Studio Advanced or Anime Studio X, or something like that...
I get what you are saying, but Anime Studio Pro is the "Anime Studio Advanced" version. No reason to get too complicated with too many versions. It just needs to be improved and fixed.

Cheers
Not necessarily. With all that would have to be added to Pro to make it ideal for a production setting, there would be a very wide gap between Pro and Debut. They could of course make Debut more advanced, but then it would have to be more expensive and therefore less attractive for beginners. There could also be a lot of features that are really only useful for collaborative work in a studio and not by a single-user.

I personally think there is room for 3 versions. One for beginner users, one for intermediate users, and one for advanced users.
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slowtiger
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Post by slowtiger »

the team is looking forward to talking more to the Pro users
This is really good news since I'm one of them, and I have the feeling that I've found some limits of AS during my work.

1. Rendering time: in a recent project I had up to 100 images layers, all scaled smaller because I needed to zoom in a lot. AS did its best, but rendering times were awfully long. It showed that there was no intelligent preparation before rendering, i.e. frames without changes took as long as frames with changes.
Wishes:
- use all cores in rendering
- find some way of "pre-composition" (like in AF)
- avoid slow-down when using hundreds of images

OTOH it is amazing what this little piece of software is able to do: juggle with dozens of Quicktime files in HD, plus images, and render all of it maybe slow, but reliable, without crashing!

2. Interface issues: for me it's all about speed of usage. Most of my time in a project I seem to waste with just selecting the object I want to manipulate: that is, searching for it in an endless list of layers, or stepping through layer tabs again and again. Any additional click is a nightmare for me. That's why I repeat my mantra since v6:
- put the default interpolation right into the top of the timeline
- allow multiple layer editing in one go
- find a way to select layers by clicking right into the project window
- allow "click and drag" select of layers
- accept both "." and "," as decimal point in numbers (be more international!)
- find a way to make selection of keys easier in reduced timeline view (I have a concept for doing so which I sold a client for a Flash application)
- allow to select "this key and all following" in timeline (like Finalcut)
- the many options behind the layer tab need to be more accessible
- some options only create a key with a value different from the default (like opacity). Make "opacity" a button which, when clicked, creates a key with the default / recent value. This would not only save time but be also more intuitive.

Some would argue that these are all minor issues, but anyone who ever worked on more complex projects will know what I mean: that any unnecessary step multiplies by thousands in the long run.

3. Bugfixing. Seriously. Any bug which survives a whole version is an insult.

(AS has relatively few bugs, compared with other stuff I use. And it's damn stable.)

4. Referencing / Teamwork abilities: This is where expensive studio packages score, and it's the main reason to buy/not buy AS for a professional studio. I'm nearly always work alone, but even I would appreciate any improvements in organizing bigger projects.

This is a feature which would only benefit heavy users like me, but be of little interest for amateurs and beginners. And I'm not really convinced if this should be included into AS at all - because AS isn't my only animation software, and other programs lack that feature as well. If there were an asset library / version control system outside which only needed an interface to AS (and other software), that would be my preferred way to go. Ah, dreaming ...

5. Character wizard: I haven't seen it in action (need to wait for a new computer before I could upgrade), and Mike's explanation as to why it can't accept our own rigs is reasonable. But maybe it could be possible to create a "create rig for character wizard wizard" for the real hardcore pro user? Again this could be something which convinces a studio to use AS. I just imagine being able to re-use good skeletons with new images in a minute, creating jib-jab style political commentary just in a day ...

6. Drawing tools: Contrary to some others I quite like them. Having round outline ends now is a dream come true. The only thing I'd like to improve would be custom brushes: right now they distribute the same number of brush copies between two points, regardless of distance. If this could be made adjustable (from "like now" to "always equal distance x"), it would be great.

This is my point of view. It's mostly about speeding up workflow, not introducing new features (which of course is always nice). And I think that some issues from my list would totally justify the full 129$ for an upgrade. Hell, maybe points 4 and 5 would even justify paying for an additional package. (Don't beat me up, boys!)

Tori/Mike: feel free to contact me for more details, or example video files.
Patmals
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Post by Patmals »

Rudiger wrote:Another idea that I've seen posted on this and other forums before is to start a new version of the software, named Anime Studio Advanced or Anime Studio X, or something like that (I'm no marketing expert). It would be a bit like Poser Pro, which I'm sure you are familiar with :), in that it would add all of the features required by professionals and demanding hobbyists and have a fairly hefty price tag.

It would also be best if it had a completely separate release schedule to Debut and Pro. This would still let you keep on releasing a new version of Anime Studio Debut and Pro every year, but only release a major version of the advanced version when one was absolutely warranted, and only release minor versions in the meantime.

Of course, if a really good feature was introduced to Debut or Pro, this could be passed up to the advanced version, and vice versa.
They could do this and market like the celsys model.
Comicstudio Debut, Comicstudio pro. Comicstudio EX
(Comicstudio is the original name for Mangastudio - also destributed in English by Smith Micro)
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digitalartguru
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Post by digitalartguru »

Rudiger wrote:be more expensive and therefore less attractive for beginners. There could also be a lot of features that are really only useful for collaborative work in a studio and not by a single-user.

I personally think there is room for 3 versions. One for beginner users, one for intermediate users, and one for advanced users.
@Rudiger
@Patmals

So you really want SM to invest their programming and time resources on having to re-create another version? Wouldn't you rather them spend that precious time on making these two versions SOLID and BUG FREE? I really think this is why we still have issues that haven't been resolved from version to version. We need the Smith Micro programmers to focus on these issues and solve them once and for all to make each new version a real upgrade and better.

As an ex computer programmer myself, I can tell you that it takes a lot of time and effort to put together software and if I have too many projects going at once, they will all suffer and the product will be crappy.

Something to think about!

I say, let make the current versions the best they can be without complicating things any further.
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digitalartguru
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Post by digitalartguru »

Nice comments slowtiger.
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