Price

General Moho topics.

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meltedtoons
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Price

Post by meltedtoons » Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:39 am

I wish they made Debut 50 bucks and pro 250 bucks. And the upgrade price from Pro to Pro 140 bucks and Debut to Debut 20 bucks. Also from Debut to Pro 190 dollars. WHY? cause I can't stand people looking down at Anime Studio because of it's low price and if they could name the Debut version something else so people won't get confused with Debut and Pro. A lot of people look down at the software because
a) it's cheap and can be found at the Mac store.
b) There are really crappy cartoons. and by crappy I mean CRAPPY. Not like a beginner using anime studio, more like a person who had a seizure while drawing and animating.

I mean I understand beginners, I'm not that good at animating myself but I wish it kept the really crappy animators who just make them to impress their friends, out.
npcomplete
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Post by npcomplete » Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:13 am

total newbie here... but having recently bought AS7PRO at amazon for $139 I'm thankful that it's as affordable as it is today otherwise it would've made me think seriously twice and consider investing in the other apps (although I still would in the future if I hit some constraints / limitations in AS).

I do agree that it could use some more appealing examples. Objectively it's not reflective of the quality or capability of the app, but first impressions are important :) In fact I'm amazed at some of the work of the members here!
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neeters_guy
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Re: Price

Post by neeters_guy » Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:51 pm

meltedtoons wrote:I mean I understand beginners, I'm not that good at animating myself but I wish it kept the really crappy animators who just make them to impress their friends, out.
The problem is that what is crappy is fairly subjective and motivation of the poster isn't always clear. Besides, this forum isn't some kind of exclusive club; it's meant as a helpful resource to anyone.

I think the best solution is to simply ignore what you consider crappy. As someone here once said (jahnocli, I think), sometimes no comment IS a comment.
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Post by dueyftw » Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:33 pm

b) There are really crappy cartoons. and by crappy I mean CRAPPY. Not like a beginner using Anime Studio, more like a person who had a seizure while drawing and animating.
Go to Youtube and search Toonboom or any other 2D software. Then look at the volume and quality. AS has about 10 times as much as the other software. 70% are test shots and not complete animation. (all programs)

So if someone can do a bad test animation but never get beyond it, the question is why?
AS, Toonboom, and any other animation program requires work. Knowing how to use a program doesn't make animation.

As far as price, I use free software? Doses that make them junk?

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meltedtoons
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Post by meltedtoons » Sat Sep 04, 2010 8:10 pm

thanks everyone for your replies
As far as price, I use free software? Doses that make them junk?
Now don't get me wrong, Anime Studio is a very powerful software, I'm just saying because of the cheap price tag people would rather buy Tonnboom than Anime Studio if they had enough money.

Picture this, if you had a 800 dollar budget to purchase a good software and you never even heard of Anime Studio what would you buy? ToonBoom Animate: 700 bucks, Flash: 700 bucks, or ASPro 200 bucks.

since AS has a cheap price tag it gives the consumers an image like, 'if I'm trying to save money, I'll go with AS, if I'm going for quality, probably Flash, or Toonboom '
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Post by dueyftw » Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:16 pm

OK, here is a tip for you if your not already using it. Find 'Color Cop' (free) download it and use it as your color picker. Make sure that you don't try to use the mouse to paste in the RBG code, use the key stroke 'Ctrl v' into Anime Studio. Why it wont work with a mouse, maybe because it's a 200 dollar program and no one has time to fix it.

One of the biggest down falls of AS is that you can't jump from knowing how Toomboom, Flash, PhotoShop or any other graphics program and have the basics of Anime Studio. AS handles everything different, from point manipulation's to masking. Anyone who has use another program to animate and try's AS will hate it, because nothing seems to work.

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Post by Danimal » Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:40 pm

meltedtoons wrote:since AS has a cheap price tag it gives the consumers an image like, 'if I'm trying to save money, I'll go with AS, if I'm going for quality, probably Flash, or Toonboom '
You have now perfectly summed up why Adobe continues to rob everyone with their laughably overpriced garbage.
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Post by funksmaname » Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:08 pm

I will duck and cover at the end of this message, and not becuase we just had a massive earhquake here :P

<rant>

the truth is, most of the people who post 'crappy' AS tests wouldn't even be able to produce a crappy animation in Toonboom! there's no getting away from it, toon boom is aimed squarely at professional animators who have the skills and patience to draw... a lot...

AS is accessible in price so people even remotely interested in animation pick it up (if they ever discover it), it's also really easy to use... yes there are quirks but there are a LOT of innovative features you dont get in overpriced software like Adobe and Toonboom. The way shapes and strokes are handled - you can do stuff in seconds it is impossible, or almost impossible to do in illustrator even if you know it inside out!

Pencils are cheap but good artists, as well as crappy ones, still use them - and buying a gold plated rotring won't make a bad drawer good. Start with a pencil and work your way up if the pencil doesn't do what you need it to do once you're experienced enough to have thoroughly explored its limitations!

Finally - there's no point getting upset because AS is underpriced so that 'pro's won't use it - you've discovered it, that gives you the advantage. It's like if you could afford a lamborgini, would you still buy one instead of something cheaper to rur and cheaper to fix when all you do is drive to the local supermarket? if you do you've either got more money than sense, or you expect to get to the supermarket 'better' by using a lamborgini... maybe if 'better' means 'people can see i can afford a lamborgini' but in the scheme of things this is insane.

Everything is tools in the hands of an artist, regardless of the pricetag, any artist that choses to buy something more expensive 'because it must be better due to being more expensive' especially without knowing the facts of what their missing, is frankly, an idiot... but AS isn't even comparable to toonboom - they are like apples and oranges for people with completely different metabolisms imo.

</rant>
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Post by DarthFurby » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:36 am

Personally I hope everyone feels comfortable posting work, including beginners. We can help them, and ourselves, by sharing what we know, thereby raising the overall skill level of the community. In that respect this forum delivers BIG TIME.

Funk, I agree with everything you wrote except for one thing. Meltedtoon's price question is interesting because it touches on the issue of perception. You are right, if fewer pros are using this program, then the advantage falls to those of us in the know. But Anime Studio reminds me of the time I had discovered this crappy looking steakhouse in Manhattan whose steaks were better and CHEAPER than anywhere I had ever been. I told no one because this place was ALL mine, but months later, they went out of business, and I reacted much like Gollum when his ring fell into Mount Doom: "My Preciousssssss!!!!" I never found another steak house like it, but since that day, whenever I see something great, I tell EVERYONE.

So this price question, is really a marketing question.

While Grekyid's stuff no longer appears on SmithMicro's website, I bought Anime Studio(Moho) back in the day on the strength of Greykid's samples in the Moho gallery. We need more pros using this program. We've discovered this great thing, but we have to tell everyone, we can't keep it a secret. Here's why:

Earlier this year, I had a chance to meet the CEO of Toonboom, Joan, a very good, down to earth, extremely intelligent woman. She was in New York on a US tour promoting Toonboom products, had just finished an informative product presentation in front of a packed gallery full of animators and industry professionals before I asked her "How has 3D effected demand for Toonboom products, and do you think 2d will ever be as big as it once was?" That stopped her. She didn't know how to answer that question, because she knew the answer, and so did most of us sitting in that gallery.

The 2d market can't support all the different software packages out there, not anymore. At least one of these animation programs is getting the axe.

There are plenty of frame by frame programs to choose from, but Anime Studio Pro is one of a kind, if it dies, we will not find another like it.
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Post by meltedtoons » Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:39 am

Finally - there's no point getting upset because AS is underpriced so that 'pro's won't use it - you've discovered it, that gives you the advantage
wow, never thought of it liked that, I think you do have a point there.

I just wish AS would try to improve on features and try to overpower ToonBoom, and to do that, Smith Micro needs to use their investments on improving 2D tools rather than 3D Tools. Also FBF (Frame By Frame) support would be pretty cool :P
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Post by crsP » Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:54 pm

What a poor argument.

"a) it's cheap and can be found at the Mac store. "

Final Cut Studio is cheap [compared to the competition in the pro\pro-sumer market] and it can be bought from the 'Mac store'. What is your point?

" A lot of people look down at the software..."

Who are these people?

"...I wish it kept the really crappy animators who just make them to impress their friends, out."

Making something for your friends is not such a bad thing. So what is your price-hike going to accomplish? Have you not seen 'Life & Times of Tim'? That is a tv show on a cable channel. It's a piece of shit and they can afford software of many thousands of dollars. You probably think it's professionals because they managed to blag their way onto television.

"Now don't get me wrong, Anime Studio is a very powerful software..."

How so? Would Synfig, Pencil, Artrage, not be considered 'powerful'? What makes it 'powerful'? This just sounds like marketing speak.

"Picture this, if you had a 800 dollar budget to purchase a good software and you never even heard of Anime Studio what would you buy? ToonBoom Animate: 700 bucks, Flash: 700 bucks, or ASPro 200 bucks. "

Are you kidding? So in a hypothetical situation Where someone has 'never even heard of Anime Studio' you really are surprised someone will not choose the program they have never heard of? Also Toon Boom Animate is not the competing app to ASP - it's Toon Boom Studio. And that's only going on price. Why not compare ASP to TvPaint?

" just wish AS would try to improve on features and try to overpower ToonBoom, and to do that, Smith Micro needs to use their investments on improving 2D tools rather than 3D Tools. Also FBF (Frame By Frame) support would be pretty cool "

How are those things going to improve just by increasing the price of the software?

It's comments like yours which do a lot of damage. I was evaluating the Moho 5 demo when a 'big event' was announced. Knowing version 5 had been doing the rounds for a while, I suspected it was going to be a newly overhauled version 6. What actually happened was Eon software buying the rights to sell Moho. They changed the name to Anime Studio, and doubled the price tag. Even though it was the same program. Many users here had a similar attitude to you - that Moho was 'underpriced', and they would be happy to pay extra for more 'pro' features. Well what they got was the same Moho re badged with the 'pro' and little more than a demo version branded as 'debut'. They didn't even offer users like myself who were evaluating the app to get Moho at the Moho price even for a short period of a week or weekend [or day] after the announcement.

If you really feel that you have underpaid for Anime Studio, then simply go to smith micro's site and buy another of their products, or even buy a second copy of AS [give it away o a child] and then you can be satisfied that you haven't taken advantage of this company. But don't be making stupid suggestions, which if implemented, will be taking money out of my own [and others] pockets.

If you feel so strongly about the 'crappy' animations, then why don't you give these people critiques? I see many times when there is some really bad stuff posted, that topic will get no reply because people think it's kinder to say nothing. Also seen false statements telling users their stuff is great and the animation and acting is fabulous, when in fact it's a pile of boring crap, which you get the gist of in the first 3 seconds. If no one tells them, how will they learn?
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Post by jonbo » Mon Sep 06, 2010 3:40 pm

I think that in this day and age, the old Latin phrase ''caveat emptor''is appropriate. If you don't do your homework i.e., search forms, compare prices and features etc.; before buying anything, then shame on you. 8)
meltedtoons
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Post by meltedtoons » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:25 pm

hey crsP

you are right about your first point but
" A lot of people look down at the software..."

Who are these people?
The people are pros and big companies they always go with Flash or Toonboom.
"...I wish it kept the really crappy animators who just make them to impress their friends, out." Making something for your friends is not such a bad thing. So what is your price-hike going to accomplish? Have you not seen 'Life & Times of Tim'? That is a tv show on a cable channel. It's a piece of shit and they can afford software of many thousands of dollars. You probably think it's professionals because they managed to blag their way onto television.
I guess if you argue with "I wish it kept the really crappy animators who just make them to impress their friends, out." you haven't met a lot of YouTubers. They're only purpose is to.. impress their friends. They do not even care about what others say, you tell them things they can improve on, they don't care and after couple of months, they close their account

"Now don't get me wrong, Anime Studio is a very powerful software..."

How so? Would Synfig, Pencil, Artrage, not be considered 'powerful'? What makes it 'powerful'? This just sounds like marketing speak.
Do you not know what Anime Studio is capable of? I think you do know cause it seems that you've been using this software since it was entitled Moho
"Picture this, if you had a 800 dollar budget to purchase a good software and you never even heard of Anime Studio what would you buy? ToonBoom Animate: 700 bucks, Flash: 700 bucks, or ASPro 200 bucks..... ....Why not compare ASP to TvPaint?
Fine, you heard about Anime Studio and you had 800 bucks what would you buy, AS, TB, or Flash
I'll still go with Flash or TB because majority of animators use Flash or TB

and I don't compare it to TVpaint cause I never used it
" just wish AS would try to improve on features and try to overpower ToonBoom, and to do that, Smith Micro needs to use their investments on improving 2D tools rather than 3D Tools. Also FBF (Frame By Frame) support would be pretty cool "

How are those things going to improve just by increasing the price of the software?
okay read the whole sentence! look:

Just wish AS would try to improve on features and try to overpower ToonBoom, and to do that, Smith Micro needs to use their investments on improving 2D tools rather than 3D Tools. Also FBF (Frame By Frame) support would be pretty cool "


by putting the price higher they have more money to improve the software with :P

And I don't think I 'under paid it' I just think it should crank up the price so TB and Flash users begin to take AS seriously
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Post by crsP » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:11 am

Cranking up the price is only going to hurt users. Anime Studio as it is still has the same amount of developers and pouring more money isn't going to make them work faster. So you original point is still not valid. It would be a totally different thing if you were saying you were willing to pay more for the software if development were to increase, but you only want it to cost more to 'keep up with the Joneses', which is quite frankly, ridiculous.

Again I ask who are these people? Specifics please. Flash is playing catchup in the world of television animation. It's dominance on the internet is due mainly to the small swf files it creates, which was a boon to animators in the 'narrowband' era. And Toon Boom is a company, not a software. I don't know how many film and television shows are produced with toon boom studio, but I can guess the figure is very low. Big companies will go off and spend thousands on Toon Boom Harmony or whatever, and small fry like us generally can't understand why they would spend so much [especially when you get a chance to use them]. But if you were working on a big show where you are out-sourcing everything to different companies, you'll need 'crap' like collaboration features, which a single person or even a small group would not have to consider. These products are usually demonstrated to the companies and they decide to use them because it fits their way of working, and not for some conspiracy.

If Anime Studio is to be produced for the 'little guys' then it must have a price to reflect this. I see this type of topic come up from time to time where people are thinking that Anime Studio is not selling. I doubt this is the case. It probably would have been dropped if it wasn't making profit. Smithmicro is not a charity. As you point out there is an abundance of Anime Studio crap out on youtube. Even factoring some piracy, I think it's safe to assume there are licences being sold.

It's just a panic reaction from those who don't have the statistics on how much licences of ASP and ASD sold. Your solution is no solution at all, and I argue because what you say is not in my [and any other user's] best interest.
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Post by chucky » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:53 am

I think all the prices seem reasonable besides one obvious and glaring exception.
ASPRO upgrade $ 70.00 is a perfect price, 120 is having a go.
Sequential offender.
my latest animations
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