(Newbie) Lipsynching and Flash

[RASH]

Pfew, I finally made it... an animation with lipsynch, see here for the result. I've put the Moho in a ZIP archive, which can be downloaded here.

I tried to keep the artwork as simple as possible. What I didn't realize was that in a browser environment you should limit the frame rate to 6 - 8 fps, otherwise the lipsynch gets out of synch. I had to export at half the frame rate (and used half the frame size), at 6 fps, and compressed the SWF file afterwards.

Of course, most flash anims on a webpage should be without such trickery, because several talking animations get on your nerves pretty soon. But it was fun making just this one, and that's worth something

I put the SWF on my Dutch cat blog, see here. I hope my blog readers enjoy watching this newbie webanimation as much as I did creating it.

[Agent]

nice work
theres a topic called Share Your Work but nevermind

[RASH]

nice work
theres a topic called Share Your Work but nevermind

Thanks! I will do that next time.

BTW In the meanwhile I have added the MP3 file to the mentioned zip archive.

[Toontoonz]

What I didn't realize was that in a browser environment you should limit the frame rate to 6 - 8 fps, otherwise the lipsynch gets out of synch. I had to export at half the frame rate (and used half the frame size), at 6 fps, and compressed the SWF file afterwards.

A limit of 6-8 fps is not what I have experienced - the following fairly complicated Moho animation with lipsyncing is done at 24 fps and the lipsync works fine on the web. (There is a .mov file and a .swf file at this link.)
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1365

I also checked out your Moho file - any particular reason why the cat is blue and green in the Moho file, but on the web it is in grey colors and seems to have a different line thickness?

[jorgy]

Maybe, part of the problem is where the "rendering" is done. With a mov or avi, it's all done upfront by moho and would appear (mostly) the same on different end-user machines. When exporting to flash, the end-user's setup has a big effect on flash's ability to keep up.

Just a thought.

[RASH]

A limit of 6-8 fps is not what I have experienced - the following fairly complicated Moho animation with lipsyncing is done at 24 fps and the lipsync works fine on the web. (There is a .mov file and a .swf file at this link.)
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1365

Then it must be my poor talents as an animator.

Strangly enough in the stand-alone Flash player, the sound was lip synch at 24 fps, but not when played from a webserver in an html document. This brought me to the conclusion that a different frame rate was necessary. 12 fps was also out of synch, but 6 fps was much better.

It may also be because you used a preloader and I didn't. I exported directly from Moho and only compressed the file. Perhaps if I had optimized the file for webloading, the performance would have been much better. But as it turned out, the 6 fps version isn't too bad and costs less band width.

I also checked out your Moho file - any particular reason why the cat is blue and green in the Moho file, but on the web it is in grey colors and seems to have a different line thickness?

I'm using the demo version and waiting for my registration number. Hopefully next week or so.

[Toontoonz]

Here is your animation at 24 fps.
All I did was take your file, change the project settings to 24 fps, reloaded the sound file and export as .swf file, then posted on internet.

The file size is 69.5 Kbyte

http://img56.echo.cx/my.php?image=talkingcatno3d7se.swf

How does it run on your computer? Runs fine on mine.

[RASH]

It works fine on my computer.

Then it must be the compressor. Because when I didn't compress the Moho output SWF file, it worked just fine. I used Flash MX 2004 Trial as a compressor, see here.

It seems compression comes at a price.

I also exported from within Flash MX without movie compression, see here. This is still pretty much out of synch.

Here is the file directly out of Moho.

[Toontoonz]

Did you export single .png or image files into Flash, then add the soundtrack in Flash and then make a Flash movie?

Or did you export from Moho as a Flash movie with sound, then open this .swf file (with sound) in Flash MX, manipulate it and then export as a movie?

If you did the first, was the Frame rate of the Flash project set the same as Moho project?
And did you make sure to exactly match the sound file with your image files?
If either of these are off, this would cause the sound to not match up.

I am no expert on the inner workings of Flash, but I don´t really think the compression in Flash has anything to do with the audio not matching the video - ecspecially on a fairly simple animation with a low-band width sound file.

[RASH]

Or did you export from Moho as a Flash movie with sound, then open this .swf file (with sound) in Flash MX, manipulate it and then export as a movie?

I did just that, but I lost the sound on import, so I had to re-import the MP3 file in a seperate layer. Of course, I had to check if the sound was still in synch with the animation, but I had expected a little bit more refinement from a program like Flash MX. Unfortunately, it seems that Flash MX in this case does a poor job indeed

It seems my thread bottles down to optimizing problems. Flash MX has a hard time importing my reasonably simple Flash animation, e.g. losing the sound data. It may be that the Pro-version does a much better job, but IMHO this program is much too expensive for animation hobbyists.

It may also be that I haven't got a clue what Flash MX is all about, and used the wrong settings for import.

BTW I've bought Flash 2 long ago. Back then it was still a cute little program, doing just what it was supposed to do: helping you to make creative webanimations. When I see Flash MX, I shudder: This isn't the program I remember. It has befallen the same fate as many other programs, it wants to emulate Micro$oft by putting as many options into a program as possible, hoping that some of them will appeal to potential buyers. The'd better left the extras to third party software developers, just as Micro$oft should have done with their operating system.
Sorry, I couldn't resist some Windows-bashing

I've used a program called Flash Optimizer (Windows only), which compressed my Flash animation only marginally, but kept the sound intact. I also made an 3D version of the same file, which could be compressed much better. Here are the files and their sizes:

flat version 73.010 bytes
same optimized 72.756 bytes
3D version 221.711 bytes
same optimized 176.563 bytes

This examplifies that this stand-alone optimizer is (as is advertized) indeed best suited for compressing 3D Flash animations.

Unfortunately, the trial version lasts only 10 days and has a gray scale only restriction. And because it is a Windows-only version, I have to use CD-R/Ws to exchange files with my Macintosh computer, which isn't very productive. How I wished there was a Mac version, then I'd buy it right away.

[Toontoonz]

Interesting the file sizes you got with your Flash optimizer.
Straight out of Moho at 24fps as a .swf Flash type file (the one I posted above) the size is smaller:
69,500 bytes (or 69.500 bytes as the Europeans write it).


Regarding your comments on Flash - it has definitely gotten more complicated with its very robust ActionScript.
But Flash is not for animators as it once was, as one notes in Macromedia´s description of Flash this is what Flash is all about:
"Macromedia Flash MX 2004 allows designers and developers to integrate video, text, audio, and graphics into immersive, rich experiences that deliver superior results for interactive marketing and presentations, e-learning, and application user interfaces."
Flash is great program for those that need what it can do.

[RASH]

Interesting the file sizes you got with your Flash optimizer.
Straight out of Moho at 24fps as a .swf Flash type file (the one I posted above) the size is smaller:
69,500 bytes (or 69.500 bytes as the Europeans write it).

Remember, I'm using the demo-version of Moho. It outputs the file I posted above. The registered version might output a smaller file.

[Toontoonz]

Remember, I'm using the demo-version of Moho. It outputs the file I posted above. The registered version might output a smaller file.

From what I understand the demo is the same as the registered version, except for the gray output and watermarking.
As Moho says on their website:
"Moho's demo mode is free and full-featured, with two restrictions: final images and movies that you export are watermarked with a "demo" label, and exported Flash animations appear only in grayscale."

[RASH]

From what I understand the demo is the same as the registered version, except for the gray output and watermarking.

This gray output may just be the difference. I will check the file size again after Moho has been registered.

[Toontoonz]

Dumb question, but why is there no "demo" watermark label on your animation if its the demo version?