To make a truly convincing character, one needs to draw versions of the character from various views - Front, 3/4, Side, Back, etc. This is the easy part.
To make the character convincing, while turning from one view through another view, the transition must be smoothly interpolated through the rotation.
The problem doing this with Anime Studio Pro has always been the inability of Switch Layers to interpolate different layers that have bones assigned to them, for each rotational position, as drawn in each layer.
As far as I can tell, if you assign a vector layer to a bone layer, (arm vector layer to arm bone layer), and do this for several character parts, (arms, legs, torso, etc.), and then parent these bone layers to a "master" switch layer, even though the Switch Layer has the "interpolation" box checked, no interpolation takes place for change in shape and position of the points on each child layer of each part, (because these vector layers are already parented to different bone layers).
To make a character smoothly transition from a front view to a side view, I can figure no other method for putting the whole character together, other than that which I have described above. If there is a way to do this for vector layers that have been assigned to bone layers, I'd sure like to know what it is.
Thank you,
Greg Smith
Any New Method For Blending Between Rotational Poses?
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
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slice11217
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:12 pm
- Location: Verona, New Jersey
Don't use switches for the head turn. Use Actions instead. Darthfurby did a 3 part tutorial about head turns and the technique can apply to other body parts as well. Here's the url for the topic:
viewtopic.php?t=8301&highlight=head+turn
viewtopic.php?t=8301&highlight=head+turn
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PocketGoat
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:02 am
There's a bunch of ways. You can use one frame actions applied to your character. So you create your character, and then you create actions where all the points are moved on the first frame to make a side view, or a 3/4 view, or whatever. Then you just apply the action at the point where you want your character to be facing that direction and it will smoothly interpolate. If you get anime studio 6 they have a new blending feature which will let you do this much easier.
Alternatively there is a pose bones script in the scripting forum which can be used to accomplish something like this, but it's a bit limited in some respects.
Or using switch layers if you create your entire character on one vector layer you can then place bones on the switch layer to rig it, rather than creating sub-bone layers but that's also pretty limited.
Alternatively there is a pose bones script in the scripting forum which can be used to accomplish something like this, but it's a bit limited in some respects.
Or using switch layers if you create your entire character on one vector layer you can then place bones on the switch layer to rig it, rather than creating sub-bone layers but that's also pretty limited.
I'm not talking about head turns here, they can be done using actions or switch layers. I'm speaking of turning a rigged character body, with its limbs, from a total side view to a total front view. And then, from a total front view to a total side view in the other direction. In order to be convincing and practical, bones must be used and the character's vector layers must interpolate from pose to pose.
You cannot use one set of bones acting on a single vector layer, since each vector layer will be in a completely different orientation, and the bones will not line up properly with each vector layer.
So, a different set of bones must be applied to each differently positioned vector layer. Somehow, one must switch from one bone layer to another. The problem is that there exists no interpolated way to do this in Anime Studio. Darth Furby's method will not work, here, since it only deals with vectors not bones. Genete's method seems to incorporate all the bones on one layer, and, unless the different bone "limbs" are spaced very far apart, the various limbs' region of influence will interfere with each other.
And, as you all know, having different bone layers as children of a master switch layer does not allow for interpolation of their child vector layers.
Maybe the real answer to this dilemma is called Threeeee Deeeee.
Greg Smith
You cannot use one set of bones acting on a single vector layer, since each vector layer will be in a completely different orientation, and the bones will not line up properly with each vector layer.
So, a different set of bones must be applied to each differently positioned vector layer. Somehow, one must switch from one bone layer to another. The problem is that there exists no interpolated way to do this in Anime Studio. Darth Furby's method will not work, here, since it only deals with vectors not bones. Genete's method seems to incorporate all the bones on one layer, and, unless the different bone "limbs" are spaced very far apart, the various limbs' region of influence will interfere with each other.
And, as you all know, having different bone layers as children of a master switch layer does not allow for interpolation of their child vector layers.
Maybe the real answer to this dilemma is called Threeeee Deeeee.
Greg Smith
After doing a test using separate bone with child vector layers - (Torso bone with child vector, Left leg bone with child vector layer, etc.), grouping them in a master "Action" layer, (no Switch layers used), as per Darth Furby, and making single frame actions for "Right Side View" and "Front View", I encountered some timeline and other problems.
For each "Action" view, creating each action for the master "Action" layer, I moved the bones on each bone layer along with the points on each vector layer, so that the poses matched the name of the "Action" view - "Right Side View", "Front View".
Selecting the "Action" master layer, I "inserted reference" to each action at different times in the timeline. The first time through, everything worked fine and as expected.
However, after creating a new "Action", and then returning to the "Mainline", I noticed that all my "inserted reference" keyframes had vanished from the timeline. Also, moving the time slider indicated that the keyframes were still there, although not visible. The poses, though, were distorted and not as originally keyed.
Looks like there are some bugs here, especially with the missing keyframes in the timeline. I tried saving, closing and restarting Anime Studio Pro (version 6), but the keyframes were still missing from the timeline and the actions were distorted.
Greg Smith
For each "Action" view, creating each action for the master "Action" layer, I moved the bones on each bone layer along with the points on each vector layer, so that the poses matched the name of the "Action" view - "Right Side View", "Front View".
Selecting the "Action" master layer, I "inserted reference" to each action at different times in the timeline. The first time through, everything worked fine and as expected.
However, after creating a new "Action", and then returning to the "Mainline", I noticed that all my "inserted reference" keyframes had vanished from the timeline. Also, moving the time slider indicated that the keyframes were still there, although not visible. The poses, though, were distorted and not as originally keyed.
Looks like there are some bugs here, especially with the missing keyframes in the timeline. I tried saving, closing and restarting Anime Studio Pro (version 6), but the keyframes were still missing from the timeline and the actions were distorted.
Greg Smith
I don't know how... "realistic" you want this to be, but you may want to look at the "Fritz" character that comes with AS 6. It isn't a "one click drag" solution for body turns but you can turn the body side to side by manipulating the bones.
Going from a total side view to front to total side is going to be VERY difficult with a 2D program using morphing or switch layers like AS. In reality would you need to "that much"?
I have been working on and off on my aim bone script. This script allows you to target a bone to "aim" at another bone. I created it specifically for posing "2.5D" body rigs. For example if you drag a "hand" instead of the hand rotating based on the fixed length of the forearm, it will SCALE the forearm bone based on the distance to the hand creating foreshortening. Same for feet and legs etc. I did some tests ages ago which had promise but it had an issue with rotation and translation.
http://www.lowrestv.com/moho_stuff/scri ... ot_rig.mov
-vern
Going from a total side view to front to total side is going to be VERY difficult with a 2D program using morphing or switch layers like AS. In reality would you need to "that much"?
I have been working on and off on my aim bone script. This script allows you to target a bone to "aim" at another bone. I created it specifically for posing "2.5D" body rigs. For example if you drag a "hand" instead of the hand rotating based on the fixed length of the forearm, it will SCALE the forearm bone based on the distance to the hand creating foreshortening. Same for feet and legs etc. I did some tests ages ago which had promise but it had an issue with rotation and translation.
http://www.lowrestv.com/moho_stuff/scri ... ot_rig.mov
-vern
Vern:
Very impressive bone movement in your .mov. I don't think the problem is with the movement of the bones as much as what happens to the associated vector layers.
I'm not trying to do any of the "modern" animation styles, where most of the animation takes place with the head and the rest of the character remains rather "static". But, rather, I'd like to be able to animate as flexibly as Ub Iwerks or Tex Avery where many very active shots involved characters turning more than 180 degrees in a single motion, very smoothly. Just watch some 1930's Mickey Mouse and observe how many times he behaves just like a "real" 3D character. That's the kind of flexibility I'm looking for, of course, having all the benefits of "point interpolation".
Now, this can be done using only point motion contained in a series of actions and morphs, or switch layers, but moving points alone for the poses necessitates too many "key" poses, to make up for the lack of arc in the movements produced by computer generated interpolation - that is why the "ideal" solution would involve the use of bones, in some fashion.
In my experiment, it looked like this technique almost worked, except for the errors generated in the process - (missing keyframes, wildly added keyframes in the bone layers, etc.)
I'd be happy to post a video demonstrating these errors, just in case anyone thinks I'm making this up.
Greg Smith
Very impressive bone movement in your .mov. I don't think the problem is with the movement of the bones as much as what happens to the associated vector layers.
I'm not trying to do any of the "modern" animation styles, where most of the animation takes place with the head and the rest of the character remains rather "static". But, rather, I'd like to be able to animate as flexibly as Ub Iwerks or Tex Avery where many very active shots involved characters turning more than 180 degrees in a single motion, very smoothly. Just watch some 1930's Mickey Mouse and observe how many times he behaves just like a "real" 3D character. That's the kind of flexibility I'm looking for, of course, having all the benefits of "point interpolation".
Now, this can be done using only point motion contained in a series of actions and morphs, or switch layers, but moving points alone for the poses necessitates too many "key" poses, to make up for the lack of arc in the movements produced by computer generated interpolation - that is why the "ideal" solution would involve the use of bones, in some fashion.
In my experiment, it looked like this technique almost worked, except for the errors generated in the process - (missing keyframes, wildly added keyframes in the bone layers, etc.)
I'd be happy to post a video demonstrating these errors, just in case anyone thinks I'm making this up.
Greg Smith
But still it's faster than drawing each frame by hand, isn't it?moving points alone for the poses necessitates too many "key" poses
If you absolutely want to have 3D with automatic interpolation, you'll need to use 3D. I really think the loops one has to force AS to jump through, in order to mimick a 3D program, are but a waste of time.
Slow Tiger:
I'd have to agree with you on both counts, fundamentally.
But all animation, (with the exception of "sillouette styles"), attempts to "mimic" 3D environments and movement, even the Simpsons. So the question really is, how to make 2D characters look like they are behaving in a 3D fashion, which is all Ub Iwerks or Tex Avery were doing. In the first case we were dealing with an animation "genius", and in the second a man leading the dozens of animators needed to complete each short.
And using 3D software to produce these effects lacks the flow, the tricks, the style and the flexibility inherent in a 2D environment - and still requires a crew of animators to finish anything notable.
In the case of using Anime Studio Pro version 6, the temptation is simply too great to ignore, since we all know how tedious and time consuming this process is, trying to do it frame by frame. Even Richard Williams never finished his frame by frame masterpiece, (without help, that is).
So, without needing to rely upon the use of scripting, why don't we all put our heads together and uncover a technique that works, and saves half a lifetime in the process.
Greg Smith
I'd have to agree with you on both counts, fundamentally.
But all animation, (with the exception of "sillouette styles"), attempts to "mimic" 3D environments and movement, even the Simpsons. So the question really is, how to make 2D characters look like they are behaving in a 3D fashion, which is all Ub Iwerks or Tex Avery were doing. In the first case we were dealing with an animation "genius", and in the second a man leading the dozens of animators needed to complete each short.
And using 3D software to produce these effects lacks the flow, the tricks, the style and the flexibility inherent in a 2D environment - and still requires a crew of animators to finish anything notable.
In the case of using Anime Studio Pro version 6, the temptation is simply too great to ignore, since we all know how tedious and time consuming this process is, trying to do it frame by frame. Even Richard Williams never finished his frame by frame masterpiece, (without help, that is).
So, without needing to rely upon the use of scripting, why don't we all put our heads together and uncover a technique that works, and saves half a lifetime in the process.
Greg Smith
Tedious?! Thats the good stuff! The best bit of the job.... you want to turn forms in space like Mickey mouse you need to draw well. You want too much out of a rig. You pose it out and build what you need.GregSmith wrote: we all know how tedious and time consuming this process is, trying to do it frame by frame.
Greg Smith
Knunk:
Pardon me? So you use Anime Studio to do tedious frame by frame animation? If so, why use Anime Studio at all, why not a dedicated frame by frame animation program?
I'm not asking for an automated rig of any sort. Only that the tools provided with this release actually work - Actions, in this case - with the entire pose being recorded in the action, (both bone movement and vector, point movement, simultaneously).
As it stands now, actions do not work in this fashion without errors being introduced.
What clues me in to the fact that Actions were intended to work in this fashion is that they do work, the first run through the playback - only after this do the errors crop up.
Greg Smith
Pardon me? So you use Anime Studio to do tedious frame by frame animation? If so, why use Anime Studio at all, why not a dedicated frame by frame animation program?
I'm not asking for an automated rig of any sort. Only that the tools provided with this release actually work - Actions, in this case - with the entire pose being recorded in the action, (both bone movement and vector, point movement, simultaneously).
As it stands now, actions do not work in this fashion without errors being introduced.
What clues me in to the fact that Actions were intended to work in this fashion is that they do work, the first run through the playback - only after this do the errors crop up.
Greg Smith
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slice11217
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:12 pm
- Location: Verona, New Jersey
Greg, check out this thread and go to Greykid's response which is about 10 posts down from the top:
viewtopic.php?p=71961&highlight=#71961
If you want to, you can also read the follow-up posts to Greykid's response. It pretty much cinched it for me as far as building fully rotational 2.5D models.
viewtopic.php?p=71961&highlight=#71961
If you want to, you can also read the follow-up posts to Greykid's response. It pretty much cinched it for me as far as building fully rotational 2.5D models.