Initial thoughts on ASP 6

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Rhoel
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Initial thoughts on ASP 6

Post by Rhoel »

Its been a long time coming and there some cool new features, some which are going to take more time in figuring out how to optimize them in production.

Changes to prevent layer creation other than on Frame 0 is welcomed - the ghosted 'vector' is an instant reminder you're not on 0.

The need for a NLE is debatable but the mition tracking tools very useful.

The improved gradients I need to test to test at 4K more but it looks infinitely better.

There are disappointments: For me, three issues remain unresolved.
  • Batch Export: This still renders output to the same directory as the source file: That is a big no-no for many reasons. The original change requested was for a selectable render directory, with the scene renders to new sub-folders - so, render_directory/scene_name/png stream. At the very least, a one line code change to the existing code would have solved the mixing of source and output files - a new ender_folder in the source directory called render_date-time (where the date-time is year-month-day-hour-minute). This would h\prevent any duplicate folder name issues.
  • Ease-in - east-out: This change was requested in 5.3. There is an ectopic or phantom position in the maths block which seriously affects the animation look. There has been considerable explanation why this phantom position affects the look: For this to still broken in a major release pisses me off greatly.
    Image.
  • Image layer clipping: this was discussed at length - calling the render broken ruffled feathers at SM and probably with Mike as well. There was an excuse over 'sweet points etc', but the "yes but" was not a solution. layer clipping affects the preview window and final render. Its a major bug and the fact output is being degrade has not been properly investigated it utterly beyond me. Its not a "sweet point" issue, it's about rendering 100% from 100%-1 pixel images: That means every image file is being rescaled or degraded: period.
    Image
Sorry if I have ruffled feathers again but seriously, unresolved bugs from 5.3 is not on. The one-line batch export code change is less than a couple of hours work, just output_directory_name = "source_directory_name" + "/render_" + datetime() + "/". That simple change would make a huge change to the functionality of the batch Export module. On a series, it would save huge amounts of time, money and stress.

Changes to Ease-i/ease-out are more complicated but code examples at the time were written as were the offers to re-write the function in a pseudo open-source contribution.

Don't get me wrong, ASP 6 is a great program which will find prime use in the series work I do - its the program of choice we teach the local animators in Thaland and here: The 30-day trial is brilliant news for this program introduction, one which will help combat software piracy.

And I'll b queuing up to buy the new release once available.

I just find it very frustrating minor changes and bug fixes never made the new version, to make the program even more of a killer application.

Rhoel


BTW, Mike: I have lost your email - its on the Thai studio machine. SM switchboard blocked my person to person call re layer clipping.
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mkelley
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Re: Initial thoughts on ASP 6

Post by mkelley »

Rhoel wrote:The one-line batch export code change is less than a couple of hours work, just output_directory_name = "source_directory_name" + "/render_" + datetime() + "/". That simple change would make a huge change to the functionality of the batch Export module. On a series, it would save huge amounts of time, money and stress.
Thanks for mentioning this -- this, too, was/is my biggest disappointment in AS 6.

I guess most people just don't do series work here, but for any sort of professional use of AS this is absolutely required. I can't tell you (well, YOU know, but I mean others) how much of a PITA this is for me (I have to end up copying all the scenes to various output directories so I can do the renders, but then when changes are made I need to remember to overwrite those scenes and not the normal production directories -- yipes. This has bit me on the ass more than once).

Now, don't start talking about how easy something is or someone (hint hint) may start telling you you don't know what you're talking about (just because I happen to be a programmer for over 30 years doesn't mean anything, apparently). But I totally agree with you -- this was a no-brainer and the only excuse I can think of is that Mike just forgot.
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Re: Initial thoughts on ASP 6

Post by Lost Marble »

mkelley wrote:Now, don't start talking about how easy something is or someone (hint hint) may start telling you you don't know what you're talking about (just because I happen to be a programmer for over 30 years doesn't mean anything, apparently). But I totally agree with you -- this was a no-brainer and the only excuse I can think of is that Mike just forgot.
There's another factor besides how easy something is to do, and that's how many people it matters to. This one just didn't bubble up to the top. There's a clear sense here that some of the professional users have changes they want, and we'll try to address more of those in the future (we did in fact implement several features that were requested by professional studios). However, we are also serving a customer base of semi-pros, hobbyists and pure amateurs, and we have to balance what all of our users need and want, not just how easy any given feature would be to implement.
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Post by mkelley »

Sure, absolutely, that makes sense except... what possible use is it to ANYONE that batch renders have to render to the same directory as the scene is stored in?

I can't think of a hobbyist, amateur or otherwise who would not benefit from that simple change. You might as well argue that putting in the change to not having current fill color was unnecessary because no one was requesting it. You did it because it made sense and because it made life easier for ALL of us.

I well understand that you want to spend more programming time on the "flashy" features that will sell AS. I was in the business for 3 decades and know how things work. But if you want AS to make inroads into the Toonboom market you really need to start addressing those who make money using animation software, and the sooner the better. A simple change here and there and you may end up selling quite a bit more Pro versions than you would have otherwise.

I find it very hard to tout AS as a series production tool for exactly these reasons (and believe me, I'm asked about it ALL the time). Oh, I do it, but then to explain how the workflow needs to go and... their eyes glaze over and I've lost them.

But... I'll keep my mouth shut about this issue (I've already gotten into enough trouble around here :>) and hope it's something you at least think about again for a point release.
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Post by heyvern »

Mkelly,

I don't really have a problem bringing up issues. Many of the issues you and others have pointed out are legitimate and valid. It's the constant between the lines "commentary" that goes along with it that is driving me CRAZY!

We ALL WANT AS TO BE GREAT! We want it to succeed and become a Toonboom killer. So say that you want a fix for the batch render. Suggest how to improve it...

... but leave out the absolutely unneeded COMMENTARY and personal accusations and condescension that is in every one of your posts. You CONSTANTLY make disparaging remarks over and over about Mike's skills as a programmer, Smith Micro's "lack of vision" and incompetence. Every post regarding AS 6 has a note of contempt.

It's getting OLD. It's getting REALLY REALLY REALLY FREAKING OLD. We know already. We know. You think AS is the Titanic, the greatest ship ever built... and that Mike is the captain. Fine we get it. We know.
I well understand that you want to spend more programming time on the "flashy" features that will sell AS. I was in the business for 3 decades and know how things work.
If you tell us ONE MORE FREAKING TIME how many dagnab freaking god awful years of freaking experience you have.... I will have an aneurysm. Blood gushing out my ears and nose... veins on my head throbbing... my head will explode like a "Scanners" movie.

Are you still in the business anymore? Or did all of your coworkers heads explode and you had to quit?

If you are so much better at this than Smith Micro and Mike Clifton then go make your own animation program. Then when YOUR customers call you names and UNJUSTLY CRITICIZE YOUR SKILLS on YOUR forum we'll see the reaction you have....

... of course no one will ever complain at all because YOUR applicationa are 100% PERFECT on the first version. You never have to do any updates or patches because all of the features you will ever need are in the first version. There are no bugs in your application because of your decades of experience...

... decades and decades of experience... my god it feels like I'm experiencing them all right now.... oh god my head is about to explode...

-vern
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Post by Genete »

my head will explode like a "Scanners" movie.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
I... have... decades... of ... exp.....Blophff!! oops sorry! :oops: didn't want to say that. ;)

Come on guys!, stop this battle! If not it is me who's going to explode wishing a linux version!. :)

-G
Last edited by Genete on Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by synthsin75 »

Vern,

Look, you have developed a personal relationship with SM and have had some very positive experience with them. That's great. The rest of us really do wish that we had your confident in everything SM. But can you try to see the general public view at the moment? I won't bother to re-list the things that have gone wrong with SM releases to date. We all know those. But can you see that there has been very little evidence to inspire some people's confidence?

Personally, I think Mike is doing a great job. But the way these things are handled does have a tendency to 'bleed' over into people's views of the whole works.

Now I know I've upset Steve, yourself, and perhaps others, but Mike Clifton continues to be unflappable. And right now THAT is the only thing that is giving me any confidence at all. So I would suggest letting Mike fight what battles he wishes, as fighting them on his behalf can only work to undermine the confidence that only he has so far provided.

:wink:
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Post by heyvern »

Synth,

Before the beta, I only received the odd email from Mike and only if I sent him one and he has time to comment on it.

Smith Micro doesn't give me anything. I didn't ask to be involved with AS nor did I expect to be. As far as I knew at the time it might just come out at any minute with or without my involvement. I hoped but I didn't have the idea I deserved it more than anyone else on this forum.

I chose to support Moho and Anime Studio because it is a powerful application that doesn't have a lot of press, or marketing or exposure. I like this program A LOT and the only way I can help guarantee it's future is to SUPPORT it both in actions and in words. Even if I have to yell at negative nellies like you and Mkelly... which I should know better by now not to do.

I'm trying to be a balancing force in the constant barrage of negative "press" you guys are providing in nearly every post about AS 6. Not just the mentioning of issues or bugs but the outright unfair, unfounded, disparaging remarks about the company and developer.

You and Mkelly have both criticized Mike's skills. You say "Oh he's great" but in the same breath you imply he shouldn't make "such stupid mistakes". I accuse Mkelly of this more than you but you are both guilty of it.

--------

I have started "translating" and testing and reporting some of the issues brought up here, on the official bug reporting site, by the way. No one asked ME to replicate all of your issues. I asked them if I could do it because many are valid concerns. That way there is an OFFICIAL record with no... side bar. Only, "just the facts" step by step instructions and descriptions is what I provide.

That is what you BOTH should be doing. Put your opinions aside and stick to giving unbiased helpful information.

If this was NOT a public forum would you waste your time criticizing Mike's skills? Saying you have no confidence in Smith Micro's customer support? Of course not. If there was no public audience and all you could do was be analytical there wouldn't be a need for the name calling. It's name calling. It's bullying. You seem to think that being insulting will get "better results".

If you want your issues addressed then leave out the commentary. It doesn't help and it won't get those things fixed one single second faster. And it unfairly gives people the WRONG impression of Smith Micro and Anime Studio.

Your negative attitudes are hurting us all.

-vern
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Post by synthsin75 »

Vern,

I have never criticized MC's skill, only perhaps his decisions. Perhaps you feel that misrepresenting me is fair game since you believe I've misrepresented SM. I don't know.

I'm guessing that no one here can possibly understand my position! I was sooooo excited about version 6 that I ran out and bought ASD6 off the shelf. I was thrilled, overjoyed, positively out of my mind.

And then I find out that I didn't have the final version. Okay, that's a bit hard to swallow, and completely outside of my experience or expectation of any software company. So I wait two days, and Steve posts the 'final' version to download. Fine, great, I'm getting what I paid for.

Only then to find that, while my serial number does activate the trial download, it doesn't allow me to export any animation.

Can you possibly imagine the kind of frustration I could be feeling? And then my problems were not handled promptly or blown off as 'not the final version'. I just honestly felt like I had no recourse to solving my problems at all.

So please excuse my outbursts. They were, and are, being fueled by my initial excitement and subsequent frustration.
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Post by Lost Marble »

synthsin75 wrote:Only then to find that, while my serial number does activate the trial download, it doesn't allow me to export any animation.
Could you elaborate? (Sorry, I'm sure you've described this on some other thread, but I'm having trouble keeping up. The forum is not the best place to track bugs.) How exactly is it not letting you export any animation?
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Post by heyvern »

synthsin75 wrote:So please excuse my outbursts. They were, and are, being fueled by my initial excitement and subsequent frustration.
I know the feeling. However, all of your problems and frustrations were already explained. They were caused by the unfortunate early release of Debut at walmart. This was explained. You can't have an update ready for a program that isn't suppose to be out yet.

-vern
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Post by synthsin75 »

Lost Marble wrote:
synthsin75 wrote:Only then to find that, while my serial number does activate the trial download, it doesn't allow me to export any animation.
Could you elaborate? (Sorry, I'm sure you've described this on some other thread, but I'm having trouble keeping up. The forum is not the best place to track bugs.) How exactly is it not letting you export any animation?
ASD6 trial download registered always crashes when you get to the save screen of exporting.

Heyvern wrote:I know the feeling. However, all of your problems and frustrations were already explained. They were caused by the unfortunate early release of Debut at walmart. This was explained. You can't have an update ready for a program that isn't suppose to be out yet.
See Vern. you are still not understanding. Agent Smith said that my valid serial number would work for the download demo, since that was the final build.
I just wrote:And then my problems were not handled promptly or blown off as 'not the final version'.
And you just did this again. I AM HAVING TROUBLE WITH THE DOWNLOAD VERSION NOW. TRY TO KEEP UP.

Sorry, but I can only take so much. Just sweep me under the rug. If you'd bother to read, you'd see that there is a current issue that MC is trying to help me sort out. That means that all of my problems have not been explained yet.
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Re: Initial thoughts on ASP 6

Post by madrobot »

mkelley wrote:I guess most people just don't do series work here, ...

Now, don't start talking about how easy something is or someone (hint hint) may start telling you you don't know what you're talking about (just because I happen to be a programmer for over 30 years doesn't mean anything, apparently).
Your constant need to slap it on the table and crack out the measuring tape speaks of a deep sense of insecurity. Tone it down a bit dude. You're not the only one who logs hours in AS or whatever. Just because we're not all oiling up and flexing our muscles doesn't mean you're the only real contender.

Relax. You can post your opinion without ctrl+V-ing your CV every. single. time. It's ok. Just post your opinion and then take a deep breath.

Edit: and ease up on the negativity while you're at it, will you? It's exhausting.
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Post by madriver »

I think I'll wait to buy v6 when they release the .5 update... :wink:
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Re: Initial thoughts on ASP 6

Post by Rhoel »

Lost Marble wrote:There's another factor besides how easy something is to do, and that's how many people it matters to. This one just didn't bubble up to the top. There's a clear sense here that some of the professional users have changes they want, and we'll try to address more of those in the future (we did in fact implement several features that were requested by professional studios). .
Having had one-to-one discussions with Mike over Pro changes, I can vouch for the fact those new features made the 5.6 cut. And its welcomed.
Lost Marble wrote:The forum is not the best place to track bugs.) How exactly is it not letting you export any animation?
I think Mike has hit the nail on the head with this: What is needed is a proper ticketing system, where bugs (and features requests) are automatically tracked.

Whilst SM might have apoplexy having just released ASP6, it might be worth forming a Anime Studio 7 steering team. If made by the pro users or those 'hobbyist' and others who are are clearly not amateur, then it would help in the design process. many people here have extensive production experience with toonboom, Animo and other apps, and have a very clear understanding of a feature is used 'in the field'. For me, ease of batch rendering is very important as when in production, days are very long and two minutes from home time, I want a facility to drag and drop, point to the render directory and run away to bed. The next day, I want to look in one directory (with subdirectories is okay) to retrieved the png sequences. For the hobbyist, this is also good, especially if the folder is datetime stamped - if a take one fails, no problem, render it again - the datetime stamp prevents accidental over-writing of other takes. Using YYYY-MM-DD-HH-MM date format also means the renders will appear in logical order in the folder, very easy to locate the latest "right" render.

In a different thread, Mike spoke about how Moho reached a crunch point, where development without outside assistant was unsustainable. Fors eFrontier entered the frame, then SM. The other option at the time was going the open-source route; Looking at where we are now, there are some of us who wished the OS path had been take: for people like Vern, mkelly and myself, it would have been an ideal solution, having access to the source code to be able to build in the features we required ourselves.

Now, as a commercial operation, the code is proprietary and collab programming is much more difficult. Scripting helps but much of the changes we want are not accessible - the ease-in/out for example. personally, I have no issue with working open-source like on that module to get it working right - I even have the maths block already done. But because ASP is now proprietary, any collab means NDA's and other safeguards for Mike/SM.

As for some of the SM criticism, its well founded: There are communications issues as a commercial operation, highlighting those failures is fair game: The WalMart debacle is a classic (one producer on hearing ASP had been released via WalMart demanded to know "why we were messing with junk"); the very reason the current flaming round erupted was because WalMart jumped the gun. It forced Sm into crisis management and from past experience they have shown they are not very good at that.

Constructive Suggestions:
  • a bugs ticketing system, preferable public to prevent multiple reports of the same issue, and to permit other comments to assist the bug.
  • A better features request system - a email batch list system might be best.
  • Vern should be on the payroll of SM, either full ot part time: He should be tasked with responsibility for this forum, with full admin rights: he understands the program well and has established lines of communication with Mike and SM. It would be his responsibility to feed relevant comments to and from the ASP dev team. It frees up Mike from forum admin and the users have a visible (and very-dedicated) face here. His contribution and value to the forum should be recognized by SM.
  • Serious debate should be give to whether ASP should be bought out as an open-source project. From an animation industry point of view, there are very strong reasons for backing such an option. It would secure its future as a pro tool and producers would feel more secure in adopting it in their production environment. It would also permit development of entirely new support programs such as automated PMS (Production management Systems) resource manager tools, and direct interfacing with other open-source projects such as Blender, Celtx etc. Animation is a small industry and hard for commercial operators to see large returns fro large code investment: Blender demonstrated how a small proprietary product-turned open can become a serious challenger to Maya/Max and Cinema-4D. ASP can be the giant killer too.
Mike has done an excellent job on ASP and there's no criticism over that. Sure, things got forgotten but that happens when developing other killer modules.But to get ASP into the giant killer league, he needs more coder support. Smaller issues and some bugs can be delegated to team 2, freeing the A Team to concentrate on main development.

I am happy to dedicate my time for free on coding tasks, project management and whatever it takes to get ASP into pole position in the Pro environment. I am sure mKelly and Synth are too: Vern's coding contribution to date demonstrates where he stands. For pole position to happen, we need infrastructure, a communication system to coordinate the effort. MC is already Captain of the ship. By freeing his time away from the minutia, development will quantum leap. In effect the coding team would quadruple.

ASP is great, but by harnessing the available talent here, it can be awesome.


Rhoel
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