I totally agree with slowtiger on this one, no use of producing something you are either not proud of ou that does not bring some material comfort.
Of course, this is all personal way of seing things!
GC
movie on a shoe string?
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Apples to Oranges
Maybe I missed this commented on above, but comparing live action shoots to animation doesn't cross over. For simplicity, let me address that as a short format production. You can get plenty of people to donate weekends and some nights to complete shoots. Then you and a few friends can do your own desktop editing, compositing and sound work. In 2 to 6 months you can have a short film to send to festivals and upload for commission of ad sale viewing - at least some kind of revenue stream. I'm helping out with a project like that right now.
For animation, you need "dear" friends to commit possibly many months of total time, or you need something like a grant to not need a day job robbing you of production time. Of course, some people are very clever and fast, and find ways around this. But, my point is animation is much more time intensive than live action. Some how this difference needs to be subsidized. Walt Disney rarely made profits on initial releases of his feature animated films. He understood brand building that drove the total of his businesses. And eventually, his films kept up box office receipts in re-release, making profits for decades. Walt had a wisdom about this that eludes a lot of today's participants. And now I'm completely off topic.
For animation, you need "dear" friends to commit possibly many months of total time, or you need something like a grant to not need a day job robbing you of production time. Of course, some people are very clever and fast, and find ways around this. But, my point is animation is much more time intensive than live action. Some how this difference needs to be subsidized. Walt Disney rarely made profits on initial releases of his feature animated films. He understood brand building that drove the total of his businesses. And eventually, his films kept up box office receipts in re-release, making profits for decades. Walt had a wisdom about this that eludes a lot of today's participants. And now I'm completely off topic.
I partially agree with jwlane
In the years of Walt Disney there was only a hand of animation studios, paychecks we re slimmer too and production cost way less then today.
Nowdays, there are hundreds of animation studios, competition is incredible, China is planning on forming 300000 animators by 2012 for cryingoutloud, heu, sorry for the outbreak.
Unless your name is Pixar, and even them need tight production schedules and budgets, you need to get your act together, production cost needs to be as low as possible, you need to find ways to either make money or go with crappy animation.
Again, my point of view, which does not necessarily reflect the opinion of those who run this forum!
In the years of Walt Disney there was only a hand of animation studios, paychecks we re slimmer too and production cost way less then today.
Nowdays, there are hundreds of animation studios, competition is incredible, China is planning on forming 300000 animators by 2012 for cryingoutloud, heu, sorry for the outbreak.
Unless your name is Pixar, and even them need tight production schedules and budgets, you need to get your act together, production cost needs to be as low as possible, you need to find ways to either make money or go with crappy animation.
Again, my point of view, which does not necessarily reflect the opinion of those who run this forum!
Great advice on this thread!!!
True story:
My Dad interviewed with Walt Disney back before WWII. Walt offered him $20 per week as a tweener. My Dad said, "Sorry, I need $40 per week to make it worth while." Walt replied, "Forty dollars! I don't even make that!"
There was no money working in art, so my Dad became an engineer, instead.
I have his drawings framed on my wall in front of my workstation for inspiration. I really wish he had continued in his art. But raising kids takes an engineer's salary. Thanks, Dad.
But with computers doing all the heavy lifting, with a tight script and storyboards with good voice over, you can produce some great stuff for less than $30,000 if you restrict your efforts to half hour shows. Look at the crap that South Park or the Simpsons produce. Nowadays, anyone can produce stuff. But whether it has a good story and is worth looking at, is the question.
It all depends upon a good script. If you can write a good story, the pieces fall into place quite smoothly.
True story:
My Dad interviewed with Walt Disney back before WWII. Walt offered him $20 per week as a tweener. My Dad said, "Sorry, I need $40 per week to make it worth while." Walt replied, "Forty dollars! I don't even make that!"
There was no money working in art, so my Dad became an engineer, instead.
I have his drawings framed on my wall in front of my workstation for inspiration. I really wish he had continued in his art. But raising kids takes an engineer's salary. Thanks, Dad.
But with computers doing all the heavy lifting, with a tight script and storyboards with good voice over, you can produce some great stuff for less than $30,000 if you restrict your efforts to half hour shows. Look at the crap that South Park or the Simpsons produce. Nowadays, anyone can produce stuff. But whether it has a good story and is worth looking at, is the question.
It all depends upon a good script. If you can write a good story, the pieces fall into place quite smoothly.
Interesting topic
I like this thread it's got good info on both sides.
I guess this all comes down to your intentions for producing your own animated film. Is it something you want to be marketable and profitable. In which case after reading the posts about the realities of how to get something funded and published could very well crush your dream.
Or is it just something you want to do as a hobby for the love of it, a piece of artwork and when your done see where it can go, if nowhere then thats ok and you are happy to share your art and the gratification of making it.
My Dad wrote a novel and is trying to get it published and he is seeing that it is pretty brutal to do. I have worked as an animator for the last 9 years in the gaming industry and I see what it takes to get something out there.
For me I have my day job and a family. So I spend a few hours a night bringing my ideas to fruition. When its done I'll see where I can take it. If nowhere but on Utube and family and friends so be it, it is worth it to me to create my idea my way.
I guess this all comes down to your intentions for producing your own animated film. Is it something you want to be marketable and profitable. In which case after reading the posts about the realities of how to get something funded and published could very well crush your dream.
Or is it just something you want to do as a hobby for the love of it, a piece of artwork and when your done see where it can go, if nowhere then thats ok and you are happy to share your art and the gratification of making it.
My Dad wrote a novel and is trying to get it published and he is seeing that it is pretty brutal to do. I have worked as an animator for the last 9 years in the gaming industry and I see what it takes to get something out there.
For me I have my day job and a family. So I spend a few hours a night bringing my ideas to fruition. When its done I'll see where I can take it. If nowhere but on Utube and family and friends so be it, it is worth it to me to create my idea my way.
Life is pain anyone who says differently is selling something.
Re: Interesting topic
Profit has never ever been the first goal of an artist. While profiting from one's art is always an artist's dream, it is never the main reason for producing art.MBC wrote:I like this thread it's got good info on both sides.
I guess this all comes down to your intentions for producing your own animated film. Is it something you want to be marketable and profitable. In which case after reading the posts about the realities of how to get something funded and published could very well crush your dream.
Or is it just something you want to do as a hobby for the love of it, a piece of artwork and when your done see where it can go, if nowhere then thats ok and you are happy to share your art and the gratification of making it.
My Dad wrote a novel and is trying to get it published and he is seeing that it is pretty brutal to do. I have worked as an animator for the last 9 years in the gaming industry and I see what it takes to get something out there.
For me I have my day job and a family. So I spend a few hours a night bringing my ideas to fruition. When its done I'll see where I can take it. If nowhere but on Utube and family and friends so be it, it is worth it to me to create my idea my way.
It's nice to make a living from what one love's to do, but pity the poor millionaires who make a living at what they hate.
Money and time are interlinked but they are not equal. Time is far more valuable than money because it becomes ever more rare and ever more dear to us with every passing moment. Even if we gain all the money in the world, none of it can buy us even a moment extra of Life. So, trading one's ever-dwindling moments of time in order to make money, is a tricky business. At the end of our lives, no matter how much money we have, we must ask: "Was all this money which I must leave behind, worth spending my life for?'
So, don't worry about it. Do your art for the sake of art. If you can sell it for a profit, all the better. But it is better to seek the full expression of your vision than to warp and twist it into something that critics and commercial whores demand. The artist stands alone in his vision, so you cannot look for encouragement to those who pay the bills. Their vision is too small.
Do your art. That is all that matters.
Hmmmm,pity the poor millionaires
This reminds me of a particular occasion when, I was sitting in the back of some millionaire's Porche on the way to a meeting with a lawyer to discuss 'shares'It was the millionaires dream to make an animated show, but he had never made any attempt to learn any of the craft, he had not suffered in poverty or prostituted himself to survive and create other peoples dreams.
And so he says something to this effect" Isn't this great making art, who needs money when you are doing what you love?"
My stomach gurgled a feint reply, but my mouth was louder. It was something like this" I need money to survive, and this is work, my feelings towards it has no relevance, and as I am fulfilling someone else's wishes, that person has to compensate me."
This answer produced just the surprise I expected, but personally , I felt like I had just been grievously insulted.
Sure I love my work, but I've made great sacrifices to do it so when it is for someone else, that's just further sacrifice, why don't people GET that?.
I would love to producing my own stuff but without capitol the dreams are made by those who can afford it. I would be under no illusion about his fact.
And so us who work full time within this art form are compelled to put their dreams aside as the 'poor millionaires" have theirs put first.
I know this is not always and completely true, there are always exceptions to the rule, and I do know a lucky few who have broken free of the shackles, but as always there are limits within reality.
Sorry for being a downer, but I'm just realistic and believe me there are few as positive and determined as this young chuck.- Well getting older chuck.
So go for it guys, and all the best, but keep the perspective and you won't end up a train wreck, just keep on pluggin' away, and never feel sorry for the moguls .
HERE ENDETH THE RANT
It really depends on what one wants out of life. All the things that money can buy, are nice and worth obtaining.chucky wrote:Hmmmm,pity the poor millionaires
.... And so he says something to this effect" Isn't this great making art, who needs money when you are doing what you love?"
My stomach gurgled a feint reply, but my mouth was louder. It was something like this" I need money to survive, and this is work, my feelings towards it has no relevance, and as I am fulfilling someone else's wishes, that person has to compensate me."....Sure I love my work, but I've made great sacrifices to do it so when it is for someone else, that's just further sacrifice, why don't people GET that?....
I would love to producing my own stuff but without capitol the dreams are made by those who can afford it. I would be under no illusion about his fact....
And so us who work full time within this art form are compelled to put their dreams aside as the 'poor millionaires" have theirs put first.
I know this is not always and completely true, there are always exceptions to the rule, and I do know a lucky few who have broken free of the shackles, but as always there are limits within reality.....I'm just realistic and believe me there are few as positive and determined as this young chuck.- Well getting older chuck.
So go for it guys, and all the best, but keep the perspective and you won't end up a train wreck, just keep on pluggin' away, and never feel sorry for the moguls .
But this is an age-old problem for artists. The artist has only rarely been more than a purveyor of goods and an employee of the fat-cats who love to be surrounded by the work of the artist for both aesthetic and investment reasons.
Yes, the artist needs the money of those who buy his art. And there is usually a trade-off between one's own artistic integrity and the call of the marketplace. This is an age-old problem. And the problem is further complicated by the fat cats controlling the marketing and distribution channels. Art cannot benefit the life of the artist unless it can be seen and purchased. So, the fat-cats control the distribution channels for their own profit. Making the art is easy compared with breaking through the controlled distribution and sales channels which are controlled with an iron grip.
But today, the electronic media in internet and digital art creation tools, free the artist to a great extent. Whether the art is distributed for free or for a fee, the fat-cat middle men can be cut out. It is an age-old problem, but the modern age has opened up many opportunities to the artist.
Think you felt a bit insulted? A multimillionaire in whose Porsch we were discussing a project, smuggly pointed out what a great car he had, and asked if I wanted to drive it!!!! As if it was something I should have envy for! Or be like his toady and chauffeur!!!
No, I wanted to strangle him just then. But, hey, it's a living! So, I grinned and said enthusiastically, "Sure, I'd love to." I drove the rich asshole into town and chaulked it up as part of the job description. Nice, car. But I still wanted to strangle him. Some people just enjoy having other people grovel. I didn't feel any smaller by conceeding to his pride and egotism but he sure looked a lot smaller to me after that.
It is a fact of life: Artists often work for a lesser sort of man. Keep that in mind, and your own worth will rise both in your own self-esteem while your value will increase by the little men who hire you.
Banjar,
While I agree with most everything you've said here, I can't help but point out that perhaps that rich guy really WAS simply trying to be nice. Heck, I wouldn't mind driving a fancy car I'll never afford to buy. They charge hundreds of dollars here to drive a race car around a track a few laps (at WDW, right outside the Magic Kingdom) so he may very well have felt he was doing you a favor. I mean, if a rich guy asked me to pilot his boat around Miami I'd like that, too.
Now, he may have expressed it badly, or sounded condescending, or whatever -- and he may have generally felt you were below him. But he also just might have been lacking in human skills -- sometimes people who succeed early on and never know hardship get like that.
And on that point -- a whole BUNCH of rich people have known hardship, sometimes more extreme hardship than the rest of us working slobs. And it doesn't even stop when they get wealthy -- Trump has gone bankrupt and lost more than you and I will ever see in a lifetime. I'm not saying these are all nice and wonderful people, just that being rich isn't necessarily a crime and we shouldn't judge them anymore than we would want them to judge us.
Finally, as I said I agree you with mostly. I'm the one in this thread that said one should always go for the dream. Yes, you have to put bread on the table, but I did a relatively soulsucking job for 30 years (that did NOT involve animation) and would have traded it in a heartbeat for working in graphics, no matter how little it would have allowed my own expression. And in my own time I worked on what I loved (and even made a lot of money for it, but that was serendipity). And now, retired, I spend ALL my free time working on what I love because, frankly, I have little time left and when I reach the end of it I want to leave behind something other than bills and "stuff".
Live, love and leave a legacy. Those are the three things we ALL must do.
While I agree with most everything you've said here, I can't help but point out that perhaps that rich guy really WAS simply trying to be nice. Heck, I wouldn't mind driving a fancy car I'll never afford to buy. They charge hundreds of dollars here to drive a race car around a track a few laps (at WDW, right outside the Magic Kingdom) so he may very well have felt he was doing you a favor. I mean, if a rich guy asked me to pilot his boat around Miami I'd like that, too.
Now, he may have expressed it badly, or sounded condescending, or whatever -- and he may have generally felt you were below him. But he also just might have been lacking in human skills -- sometimes people who succeed early on and never know hardship get like that.
And on that point -- a whole BUNCH of rich people have known hardship, sometimes more extreme hardship than the rest of us working slobs. And it doesn't even stop when they get wealthy -- Trump has gone bankrupt and lost more than you and I will ever see in a lifetime. I'm not saying these are all nice and wonderful people, just that being rich isn't necessarily a crime and we shouldn't judge them anymore than we would want them to judge us.
Finally, as I said I agree you with mostly. I'm the one in this thread that said one should always go for the dream. Yes, you have to put bread on the table, but I did a relatively soulsucking job for 30 years (that did NOT involve animation) and would have traded it in a heartbeat for working in graphics, no matter how little it would have allowed my own expression. And in my own time I worked on what I loved (and even made a lot of money for it, but that was serendipity). And now, retired, I spend ALL my free time working on what I love because, frankly, I have little time left and when I reach the end of it I want to leave behind something other than bills and "stuff".
Live, love and leave a legacy. Those are the three things we ALL must do.
mkelley,
I was just relating a specific instance from my life about a genuine asshole whom I used to work for. But you are generalizing.
Perhaps it is up to us old retired guys to show the enslaved youths in the animation mills how to produce some real art. With good software to relieve some of the work-load, we can do it.
Here in the USA, under the synthetically created "financial crises" and according to the financial bulletins, the wealthiest people increased their wealth by 24% over last year ... all while the schools are being closed down for lack of funds and the retired people are being evicted from their homes with their life's savings swindled away and the municipalities laying off essential workers.
Don't tell me about rich people, I've known a lot of them. Unless they inherited their wealth, they didn't get where they are by being nice guys.
Money corrupts. If it is a spin-off from one's work, fine. But it should not be one's goal in Life. Pride in doing a good job and increasing the total Goodness of society should come first, if you can make money while doing that, so much the better. If making money causes hardship and suffering for other people, then those making the money ought to be hung as the criminals that they are.
Sorry, mkelley, I can't be as charitable as you are toward the wealthy. I've known too many of them and have seen what their wealth does to them and to the people around them. It's too ugly to bring up in a Forum devoted to bright colors and blooming flowers, Donald Duck and the Looney Toons, so I will drop the subject.
I was just relating a specific instance from my life about a genuine asshole whom I used to work for. But you are generalizing.
Perhaps it is up to us old retired guys to show the enslaved youths in the animation mills how to produce some real art. With good software to relieve some of the work-load, we can do it.
Here in the USA, under the synthetically created "financial crises" and according to the financial bulletins, the wealthiest people increased their wealth by 24% over last year ... all while the schools are being closed down for lack of funds and the retired people are being evicted from their homes with their life's savings swindled away and the municipalities laying off essential workers.
Don't tell me about rich people, I've known a lot of them. Unless they inherited their wealth, they didn't get where they are by being nice guys.
Money corrupts. If it is a spin-off from one's work, fine. But it should not be one's goal in Life. Pride in doing a good job and increasing the total Goodness of society should come first, if you can make money while doing that, so much the better. If making money causes hardship and suffering for other people, then those making the money ought to be hung as the criminals that they are.
Sorry, mkelley, I can't be as charitable as you are toward the wealthy. I've known too many of them and have seen what their wealth does to them and to the people around them. It's too ugly to bring up in a Forum devoted to bright colors and blooming flowers, Donald Duck and the Looney Toons, so I will drop the subject.
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areyouguystwins
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:02 pm
- Location: New York
Sure - Go for it. We did.
30 grand is more than enough to make a full-length film. We did it for much less - mainly for the cost of the anime software only. Do what you want to do and quit worrying about whether it is "perfect" or not.
Our movie is far from perfect, but it's full-length and complete. And it is something we always wanted to do before we died. Now we can say we fulfilled our dream. Did we make a dime off it? Hell no. Not one red cent. Who cares?
Unless you really care about money and perfection, I say make any length animated film you want. Life is too short to pass on things because people say "it can't be done."
If you want to see the full feature length animated film we did, here it is:
Big Mod Blows
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=areyouguystwins
Napoleon
Our movie is far from perfect, but it's full-length and complete. And it is something we always wanted to do before we died. Now we can say we fulfilled our dream. Did we make a dime off it? Hell no. Not one red cent. Who cares?
Unless you really care about money and perfection, I say make any length animated film you want. Life is too short to pass on things because people say "it can't be done."
If you want to see the full feature length animated film we did, here it is:
Big Mod Blows
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=areyouguystwins
Napoleon
Hmm...good luck man. If you've got a burning desire to do it, nobody's going to get in your way. If you don't really think it'll work, well, maybe try it and see or use the money for something else. But if you really want to do it, then you'll do it. Ha ha. Hell, who knows. If I had 30k, I guess I'd just eat and live well for a while and do funny little animations on the side with an aim to try and get someone else to fund my vision.
What's the movie about? Apologies if you're posted the synopsis before.
What's the movie about? Apologies if you're posted the synopsis before.
It's a quantity and quality issue, time and effort over screen time and entertainment value.
Life is too short to sit and watch something that doesn't deserve your attention, so do you want to make something that people watch on the edge of their seat or be mesmerised by its meaning or even seduced by it's emotional content or visual splendour.These aspects will be the greatest influence on your budget.
Are you on the other hand merely making screen time for the sake of screen time in a self assured delusion, to please merely yourself?
Can you make a feature on the smell of a fart? Sure but ensuring that farty odour isn't inherited to the screen is not so easy, even with a large budget.
I have been helping someone with some audio issues on what could turn out to be a 500 buck feature (live action) but this is an experienced director and writer for radio (retired) so his cast crew are all retired with money to live on and roofs over their heads and nothing but spare time.
All these factors contribute to it's cost effectiveness as well as the carefully controlled location and action.
All these lack of cost is an illusion really as the cost of living for all those involved has not been counted, and despite the $500 claims, I know he spent more than that on my very minimal tutoring fee, so when I hear these figures I know the books have been cooked to a certain degree, like the classic tale of El Moriachi - R Rodrigues does rock however..
This all brings me to the question....How long is a piece of string????......but this topic might need another thread.... get it? thread??
huh?...wha? hehe. 
Life is too short to sit and watch something that doesn't deserve your attention, so do you want to make something that people watch on the edge of their seat or be mesmerised by its meaning or even seduced by it's emotional content or visual splendour.These aspects will be the greatest influence on your budget.
Are you on the other hand merely making screen time for the sake of screen time in a self assured delusion, to please merely yourself?
Can you make a feature on the smell of a fart? Sure but ensuring that farty odour isn't inherited to the screen is not so easy, even with a large budget.
I have been helping someone with some audio issues on what could turn out to be a 500 buck feature (live action) but this is an experienced director and writer for radio (retired) so his cast crew are all retired with money to live on and roofs over their heads and nothing but spare time.
All these factors contribute to it's cost effectiveness as well as the carefully controlled location and action.
All these lack of cost is an illusion really as the cost of living for all those involved has not been counted, and despite the $500 claims, I know he spent more than that on my very minimal tutoring fee, so when I hear these figures I know the books have been cooked to a certain degree, like the classic tale of El Moriachi - R Rodrigues does rock however..
This all brings me to the question....How long is a piece of string????......but this topic might need another thread.... get it? thread??
huh?...wha? hehe. 