Then, GK, I truly think you need to work together with both SM and a LUA developer like Vern to make sure the tools are there for everyone.
It's unlikely that SM will be willing (or able) to give you exactly what you want, but they sure as heck can provide the access that Vern would need to do that. And, as I said, it's a Win/Win for everyone in that whatever comes to pass can be made available (for sale or not as the spirit dictates :>) for everyone.
And in the meantime AS becomes more and more accessible for third parties to add to it. The more I think about Vern's position the more excited I become thinking about actually doing useful programming for AS (having spent 30+ years as a developer I the old yearnings still surface from time to time).
Good luck to everyone involved (and I hope SM or Mike or somebody is paying attention to this thread).
Anime Studio Quality
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
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synthsin75
- Posts: 9973
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Hey, I know I have a personality that is uniquely suited for a one-man studio setting.synthsin75 wrote:This is probably why I'll never work in such a production.
I'm not asking anyone to take what I say as law. Like anything else here, most of it is pure opinion. I'd just be apt to hold myself to those kind of standards/expectations, and everyone tends to generalize based on their own perceptions. No one should be feeling like their toes have been stepped on, here.
Now I understand the purpose of GK's thread about wanting to get in contact with Smith-Micro. I gotta tell you that I'm doing my happy dance right now as I've actually wanted this to happen for years. If GK could prove that AnimeStudio was a viable tool for doing a major series, then this would attract other studios, which would, in turn, attract more single-users, and help launch AnimeStudio as the premier tool for 2D animation! I just hope that SM sees this potential and accepts GK's offer.
I can say one thing for certain...
If an upcoming version of ASP has at least some of the scripting features I need or request one of the FIRST things I plan to use that for is to create a scripted work flow asset system even if it is just for myself.
If this happens and anyone would like to work with me and help me do it right I'm all over it.
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I often think back on the "experimental" 3D scripting adventure that Genete and I went on. In my humble opinion the results were and still are ASTOUNDING. However the process is a bit complicated due to limitations with scripting in AS. I still think that our process of "3D" vectors in AS with automatic shape ordering is ten times what obj import is. If that could be implemented into AS so it could be done more easily it would be a major feature.
The physics simulations I created with scripting also were a good start but had severe limitations for practical use. You can't save the physics "settings" easily (without using bizarre and confusing bone names). The other option would require the script to be edited "by hand" which requires "scary" editing of lua by people who don't know it.
All that is needed to make this work without funny names on bones or editing of the script or external files is a simple user defined area of the file format that script properties can be saved to and a "global" script for the document instead of just individual layers.
The other option is saving a separate file with this info inside it... but through my own personal experience with this that option is a freaking NIGHTMARE. I still use my own bone grouping and colorizing scripts. I love it but it's a freaking pain to maintain the code because I can't save the settings in the file format and every tool can't access the code without custom modifications.
The bone group and colorizing script only needs a way for the DOCUMENT to access a "universal" script instead of only layers or tools. Then it is just one script and a tool for creating bone groups.
I suppose Mike could do this better in the application. I certainly hope he does but if he doesn't have time and it's easier to add one or two of my feature requests instead I'm happy to keep pushing the envelope of what can be done with lua.
My dream is that someday the scripts I create can be used in AS seamlessly and invisibly. No funky nonsense. Just install it and use it or not. Like a plugin or new feature.
-vern
If an upcoming version of ASP has at least some of the scripting features I need or request one of the FIRST things I plan to use that for is to create a scripted work flow asset system even if it is just for myself.
If this happens and anyone would like to work with me and help me do it right I'm all over it.
----------
I often think back on the "experimental" 3D scripting adventure that Genete and I went on. In my humble opinion the results were and still are ASTOUNDING. However the process is a bit complicated due to limitations with scripting in AS. I still think that our process of "3D" vectors in AS with automatic shape ordering is ten times what obj import is. If that could be implemented into AS so it could be done more easily it would be a major feature.
The physics simulations I created with scripting also were a good start but had severe limitations for practical use. You can't save the physics "settings" easily (without using bizarre and confusing bone names). The other option would require the script to be edited "by hand" which requires "scary" editing of lua by people who don't know it.
All that is needed to make this work without funny names on bones or editing of the script or external files is a simple user defined area of the file format that script properties can be saved to and a "global" script for the document instead of just individual layers.
The other option is saving a separate file with this info inside it... but through my own personal experience with this that option is a freaking NIGHTMARE. I still use my own bone grouping and colorizing scripts. I love it but it's a freaking pain to maintain the code because I can't save the settings in the file format and every tool can't access the code without custom modifications.
The bone group and colorizing script only needs a way for the DOCUMENT to access a "universal" script instead of only layers or tools. Then it is just one script and a tool for creating bone groups.
I suppose Mike could do this better in the application. I certainly hope he does but if he doesn't have time and it's easier to add one or two of my feature requests instead I'm happy to keep pushing the envelope of what can be done with lua.
My dream is that someday the scripts I create can be used in AS seamlessly and invisibly. No funky nonsense. Just install it and use it or not. Like a plugin or new feature.
-vern
Hopefully discussions between GreyKid and Smith-Micro are going well, but I thought of a plan B that they might like to consider just in case. It is to do all of their asset management outside of AnimeStudio using an external custom database app.
If someone wanted to edit an asset, say an anime file, they would check it out of the database and the database would then prevent anyone else from checking it out. When they check it out, the database app could automatically update all embedded anime files within the anime file. It could also warn them if any of the embedded anime or bitmaps are checked out and therefore subject to change. When the artist has finished making their changes they would then check their file back in. Again, the app could warn them whether or not any embedded assets were modified since they checked the file out. The app could also automatically do daily and weekly backups, etc.
The added benefit of this is that it could hold all of the assets for a production, like bitmaps, combustion files, audio files, etc. Also, it doesn't require any special features to be added to AnimeStudio as it's completely external.
I reckon that a professional Python programmer could easily whip up a basic version of this in a week or two, perhaps sooner if they could source Anime file readers and writers from somewhere. Hey, perhaps Heyvern could even give it a try using standalone Lua and wxLua. If Mike ever did add the features he wanted it would then be a simple matter of integrating his existing code into AnimeStudio.
If someone wanted to edit an asset, say an anime file, they would check it out of the database and the database would then prevent anyone else from checking it out. When they check it out, the database app could automatically update all embedded anime files within the anime file. It could also warn them if any of the embedded anime or bitmaps are checked out and therefore subject to change. When the artist has finished making their changes they would then check their file back in. Again, the app could warn them whether or not any embedded assets were modified since they checked the file out. The app could also automatically do daily and weekly backups, etc.
The added benefit of this is that it could hold all of the assets for a production, like bitmaps, combustion files, audio files, etc. Also, it doesn't require any special features to be added to AnimeStudio as it's completely external.
I reckon that a professional Python programmer could easily whip up a basic version of this in a week or two, perhaps sooner if they could source Anime file readers and writers from somewhere. Hey, perhaps Heyvern could even give it a try using standalone Lua and wxLua. If Mike ever did add the features he wanted it would then be a simple matter of integrating his existing code into AnimeStudio.
The lack of project management tools in Anime Studio is not an argument to stop using it for large projects. I'm collaborating in a large one created with Synfig (who doesn't have any project management tool) and it is going very well. We are using git as the collaboration tool to integrate all the works that people are working in parallel. But not only Synfig is used, it uses blender, gimp, krita, pencil and openoffice as main production tools. All they fit well in git management if the structure of the project is previously organized. Check it out here and here. Git is very well prepared for text files modifications (and anme files are text!!). It sure will success on that.
Anime Studio only needs a way of re-usability of external files. When you load an external file in your animation to be possible to import a "reference" instead of a copy. Modifying the original file would modify all the instances where it is referenced. Also that the styles used were full named, I mean that the style includes the filename as its unique identifier. This would allow import styles form external files and use them coherently in a whole project. With those two features I think that AS will turn to a complete full project ready application.
My two cents.
-G
Anime Studio only needs a way of re-usability of external files. When you load an external file in your animation to be possible to import a "reference" instead of a copy. Modifying the original file would modify all the instances where it is referenced. Also that the styles used were full named, I mean that the style includes the filename as its unique identifier. This would allow import styles form external files and use them coherently in a whole project. With those two features I think that AS will turn to a complete full project ready application.
My two cents.
-G
Exactly!Genete wrote: Anime Studio only needs a way of re-usability of external files. When you load an external file in your animation to be possible to import a "reference" instead of a copy.
The only two features needed for this to create a lua scripted solution would be a script/user storage area in the file format and the ability to import AS files with a script.
With just those two features when an AS file is opened a button could be clicked to "update all linked layers" and another button could be clicked to "export linked layers".
The concept of a "linked" file instead of a "copy" is an illusion anyway. Any program that uses "linked" files is still opening that linked file and working with it just like a copy. The "illusion" is that when it's saved or open it saves/opens that linked file. It isn't "magic", it doesn't create some kind of connection through a wormhole that is magically connected.
-vern
Git sounds like the exactly the sort of tool I was talking about. Looks to be overkill for a media project though, but since some of it is scripted, so perhaps it could still be customized to be to suite a particular production studio.Genete wrote:We are using git as the collaboration tool to integrate all the works that people are working in parallel. But not only Synfig is used, it uses blender, gimp, krita, pencil and openoffice as main production tools. All they fit well in git management if the structure of the project is previously organized. Check it out here and here. Git is very well prepared for text files modifications (and anme files are text!!). It sure will success on that.
That sounds like the perfect feature to add to AS. I would also like it to be possible to override the main timeline and add actions for a reference AS file. That way frame0 could effectively be stored in a separate file and you could separate out your character creation and animation tasks.Genete wrote: Anime Studio only needs a way of re-usability of external files. When you load an external file in your animation to be possible to import a "reference" instead of a copy. Modifying the original file would modify all the instances where it is referenced. Also that the styles used were full named, I mean that the style includes the filename as its unique identifier. This would allow import styles form external files and use them coherently in a whole project. With those two features I think that AS will turn to a complete full project ready application.
I still think that it could be faked outside of AS, should Mike choose not to implement it. If I get the chance, I might throw together a Python script that can merge AS files together, so that all embedded files are updated within a master file.
Ooops! You must be one of those artist types like Rembrant or Charles Schultz. So sensitive! So easily hurt! Putting his whole heart into it!dm wrote: Not everyone has the same needs, do they?
I thought this was a forum: meeting place for discussing things of public interest
Sometimes seems more like a forum: court or tribunal
Maybe I was mistaken.
Come on, Man! Everybody on this Forum is an artist. Some of us have thicker skin (covered with warts, maybe) than you.
Don't get your feelings hurt. These are just opinions, after all, aren't they?
But be warned and be careful, these are all cartoonists and animators here ... with their cruel, steely eyes locked on both reality and illusion ... and they don't take no prisoners. So, draw yourself an nice square chin like Dick Tracy and tough it out.
Aftermath of the job I was talking about is here:
viewtopic.php?t=13818 (Misc Chit Chat)
I've made a circular reference now. Doesn't seem to be inappropriate, but if that's improper etiquette, I apologize (please inform me if I'm in error)
viewtopic.php?t=13818 (Misc Chit Chat)
I've made a circular reference now. Doesn't seem to be inappropriate, but if that's improper etiquette, I apologize (please inform me if I'm in error)
Hello all!
Lot's of discussion in the past about using AS in a large series production, AS Pro evolved over time, some like the changes some do not, but the production side of the story did not change.
A producer looks at software that can do the job, that is backed by a company that can support the software almost real time, bug fixes etc.
They are looking for software that are used in large scale production as they are looking for solutions.
I remember when they made the pilot for king of the hill, the cost was around a million dollar for the pilot (bible etc), so the cost of the software is next to none in the consideration process.
AS is good for a small, dedicated team of talented animators, like freakish kid, but not at all suited to be considered as a large scale tool.
AS does not have the corporation to back it up, like Toonboom or adobe, does not have the tools to incorporate into a large pipeline (most of the steps in a large scale animation project are automated)
Although AS is an amazing tool that can produce really good animation, it is not for the big boys.
My two cents.
G
Lot's of discussion in the past about using AS in a large series production, AS Pro evolved over time, some like the changes some do not, but the production side of the story did not change.
A producer looks at software that can do the job, that is backed by a company that can support the software almost real time, bug fixes etc.
They are looking for software that are used in large scale production as they are looking for solutions.
I remember when they made the pilot for king of the hill, the cost was around a million dollar for the pilot (bible etc), so the cost of the software is next to none in the consideration process.
AS is good for a small, dedicated team of talented animators, like freakish kid, but not at all suited to be considered as a large scale tool.
AS does not have the corporation to back it up, like Toonboom or adobe, does not have the tools to incorporate into a large pipeline (most of the steps in a large scale animation project are automated)
Although AS is an amazing tool that can produce really good animation, it is not for the big boys.
My two cents.
G
Scream all you want, it is the truth.knunk wrote:Sometimes I could scream!
No one would spend millions on a series and use a software that has no large scale support, no real freehand animation capabilities and no build in collaboration tools.
This is the reality of big time studios. Toonboom has peoples who's sole jobs are to help studios integrate their software into pipelines.
These peoples go onsite and work hand in hand with studios, TD's and producers to make things go smoothly.
They have programmers who build dedicated tools to solve specific issues, for specific type of production needs.
All of this makes for these softwares larger price tags, up to several K for Toonboom softwares.
It has nothing to do with the results the software can output, but merely with how easy it can integrate so things go fast and in an easy and predicable way.
Large studios do not want to loose time and money to develop workaround, they want the software to work as smoothly as possible.
Now, if you we're a producer, if it was your job on the line, this is exactly what you would want for your production.
AS Pro is just not design for that type of production, nor is Smith Micro offering any such type of support, reason why I would not go with AS Pro for large scale production.
Now, for small, or even medium scale production, and it seems to me this is exactly how Smith Micro is positioning it, AS Pro is a kickass software and I would recommend it with my eyes closed!
G
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Freakish Kid
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GCharb,
Your over compicating everything, shows that are produced in Flash - and there are many, many more than TB. Don't have TD's attached to them, rather an employee who knows the software.
You'd be suprised how many studios use ASP to produce animation. Its used a lot more than you realise only producers don't mention it - my feeling about this is because of the cheap price tag.
The toolset in Flash hasn't really changed a great deal in the last few years. It's pretty much the same, just as is ASP. Toonboom has tech people on call because of the complexity of the software, producers believe its a lot better because of its price tag and TB's reputation. Its all perceptive. ASP is a far superior software for animation IN EVERYWAY.
TB Pro allows you to paint and trace and even has a sophisticated comp package tied into it. But for comp you cannot beat After Effects (which has its own support). It boils down to this - if a studio/producer had faith in a crew with the technical knowledge of ASP then they'd use it once they saw what it can achieve.
I know this is true cause we've done exactly that and are now in production of a massive production, with 2 or 3 more heading our way this year.
A few years ago no one would use Flash for series production, it was all done traditionally, too risky using a digital animation program, too many unknown factors. And now, there are more and more (Flash, TB and ASP) going into production. ASP will grow bigger, verion 6 is already much more than its predicessors. You wait and see.
FK
Your over compicating everything, shows that are produced in Flash - and there are many, many more than TB. Don't have TD's attached to them, rather an employee who knows the software.
You'd be suprised how many studios use ASP to produce animation. Its used a lot more than you realise only producers don't mention it - my feeling about this is because of the cheap price tag.
The toolset in Flash hasn't really changed a great deal in the last few years. It's pretty much the same, just as is ASP. Toonboom has tech people on call because of the complexity of the software, producers believe its a lot better because of its price tag and TB's reputation. Its all perceptive. ASP is a far superior software for animation IN EVERYWAY.
TB Pro allows you to paint and trace and even has a sophisticated comp package tied into it. But for comp you cannot beat After Effects (which has its own support). It boils down to this - if a studio/producer had faith in a crew with the technical knowledge of ASP then they'd use it once they saw what it can achieve.
I know this is true cause we've done exactly that and are now in production of a massive production, with 2 or 3 more heading our way this year.
A few years ago no one would use Flash for series production, it was all done traditionally, too risky using a digital animation program, too many unknown factors. And now, there are more and more (Flash, TB and ASP) going into production. ASP will grow bigger, verion 6 is already much more than its predicessors. You wait and see.
FK