Animation channel management

chucky · Post by **chucky** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:53 am

Not a bad idea Mike and Ryleman too.
I think it would be awesome if we could expand the timeline tools.
So click the master bone and it expands downward to show each parent bone and children (with corresponding names) from that. A line for each bone would highlight when selected from the side. Toggle each line to go to graph.

Like Vern said Animation Master has a pretty good time line system as do other 3D apps.

With points this could be very cumbersome I know, but maybe a similar system for grouped points? Once again AM has done this very well.

One thing though, I'd love to be able to get to keyframes that belong to other layers and be able to shift whole bunches of movement together.
This was one of the first and and things that I hated about the time line, I know that's harsh, sorry but it's a 'bone ' of contention for me.

Rudiger · Post by **Rudiger** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:30 am

chucky wrote:Not a bad idea Mike and Ryleman too.
I think it would be awesome if we could expand the timeline tools.
So click the master bone and it expands downward to show each parent bone and children (with corresponding names) from that. A line for each bone would highlight when selected from the side. Toggle each line to go to graph.

Like Vern said Animation Master has a pretty good time line system as do other 3D apps.

With points this could be very cumbersome I know, but maybe a similar system for grouped points? Once again AM has done this very well.

One thing though, I'd love to be able to get to keyframes that belong to other layers and be able to shift whole bunches of movement together.
This was one of the first and and things that I hated about the time line, I know that's harsh, sorry but it's a 'bone ' of contention for me.

An expandable timeline is not a bad idea, although I really like the selected objects channel system that's already there. Perhaps it would be nice if it worked in reverse as well, so it's possible to select all objects that have a keyframe at the current frame. Then you can more interactively add and delete keyframes for specific objects, instead of trawling though a long list of object names.

I think not being able to edit timelines for different layers simultaneously is a well known issue. I think just being able to select multiple layers at once and the timeline then shows a merged version of all of the selected layers is the easiest solution to this. Being able to select multiple layers at once should also make it possible to edit points and bones across multiple layers without having to manually switch as well.

rylleman · Post by **rylleman** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:02 am

Just some further notes on my mute idea, it does not set any keyframes, it's for editing only, you just turn off that channel temporary. Perhaps it could affect render too so that muted channels are still muted in rendered output.

funksmaname · Post by **funksmaname** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:26 am

i was thinking the same thing as chucky - i think if you could toggle to 'roll out' all of the subkey layers for bones (not points, that would just get silly) this would solve some confusion (as well as promote naming of bones, right now i dont name anything - unless you are using scripts its a complete waste of time

) - if the bone layers could expand to show the individual tracks it would be really easy to see what you're doing (the red/black track is quite hard for newbies, and oldies occsionaly

) - if, like after fx, you could 'shy' a layer to hide it (but it would still be editable on the canvas) that would avoid clutter...?

if this was implemented it would have to be an expanding button, showing the standard current style red/black tracks at the top incase you have a million bones and want to work 'oldskool'...?

dueyftw · Post by **dueyftw** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:02 pm

I would like to see each layer be named in the time line. And as Rudiger said have able to select multiple layers at once. That would mean that if I right clicked on a layer and new time line would come up with the layer title. Then an activate button so I could change layers animation and look at others so I know where the keys are.

Dale

Manu · Post by **Manu** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:54 pm

Being able to enable/disable animation channels would be fantastic, but only if the interface is really fluid to use.

1. You would have to be able to multiple select the channels and be able to switch more than one on or off at a time. The way it currently works with the "Settings.." panel, I hardly use it.

2. Could there be a way we can make our own default settings for which channels are switched on/off?

3. After Effects of course divides the channels up in collapsable groups. In Moho, that would be: bones, points, shapes, layer transforms, layer effects, camera. Would be great if you could enable/disable groups at once.

4. I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have been better if the scrollwheel had been assigned to scrolling up and down the timeline rather than moving the time. Part of the reason it can be quite tedious finding the right channel is that navigating the timeline up and down can only be done with the scrollbar.

5. Further on the navigation for the timeline (which I think really is part of the problem) I really feel that however you navigate in the canvas, should be exactly the way you navigate the timeline. e.g. After Effects uses the space bar for moving the canvas, the timeline and even the project window.

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:47 am

Manu wrote:Being able to enable/disable animation channels would be fantastic, but only if the interface is really fluid to use.

1. You would have to be able to multiple select the channels and be able to switch more than one on or off at a time. The way it currently works with the "Settings.." panel, I hardly use it.

2. Could there be a way we can make our own default settings for which channels are switched on/off?

3. After Effects of course divides the channels up in collapsable groups. In Moho, that would be: bones, points, shapes, layer transforms, layer effects, camera. Would be great if you could enable/disable groups at once.

4. I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have been better if the scrollwheel had been assigned to scrolling up and down the timeline rather than moving the time. Part of the reason it can be quite tedious finding the right channel is that navigating the timeline up and down can only be done with the scrollbar.

5. Further on the navigation for the timeline (which I think really is part of the problem) I really feel that however you navigate in the canvas, should be exactly the way you navigate the timeline. e.g. After Effects uses the space bar for moving the canvas, the timeline and even the project window.

I just had to quote all of that because I think Manu has a very good handle on it. Just being able to use the mouse wheel to scroll up and down the timeline channels would be a godsend. I'm always trying to do this even now. I usually drag the time cursor to scrub the timeline.

Maybe even a mouse wheel modifier key or right-click pan like the workspace.

chucky · Post by **chucky** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:51 am

I support Manu's scroll wheel suggestion, every time I use ASPRO I give it a shot anyway in the futile hope that maybe one day it will scroll down.

I also keep pressing the arrow keys thinking that that will scrub through the time line.

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:07 am

I also keep pressing the arrow keys thinking that that will scrub through the time line.

Windows version already does this.

We could even have both. I have a mouse that has a left/right tilting wheel for horizontal scroll, and even my laptops touchpad has this capability. So ideally, vertical scroll would scroll up/down the channels while horizontal scroll would scrub the timeline.

This would make more sense to me since you'd be scrolling in the direction you wish to move in the timeline window.

chucky · Post by **chucky** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:22 am

Oh my god I must really be mental Synth you're of course right about that....time for a brain scan.

EDIT: right left click time line scrub and scroll..... absolutely. good one Synth

Rudiger · Post by **Rudiger** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:18 am

dueyftw wrote: I would like to see each layer be named in the time line. And as Rudiger said have able to select multiple layers at once. That would mean that if I right clicked on a layer and new time line would come up with the layer title. Then an activate button so I could change layers animation and look at others so I know where the keys are.

Dale

I'm starting to get into this expandable/collapsable channels concept. What if you could collapse the timeline down to a single line that just shows wherever you have any sort of keyframe. This would be great for doing global edits to the timeline, incorporating all channels and selected layers. Expanding this would give you the normal list of channels that AnimeStudio has now. And then incorporating dueyftw's idea, each channel could be expanded to show the list of currently selected layers. Each layer could then be expanded to show the list of objects belonging to each layer, as has already been mentioned.

Another timeline feature I would like to request is having a button or hotkey that automatically selects all keyframes to the left or right of the cursor. This would make it easier to make room for the insertion of an extra keyframe and complement the above expandable channel list.

synthsin75 wrote:
I just had to quote all of that because I think Manu has a very good handle on it. Just being able to use the mouse wheel to scroll up and down the timeline channels would be a godsend. I'm always trying to do this even now. I usually drag the time cursor to scrub the timeline.

Maybe even a mouse wheel modifier key or right-click pan like the workspace.

I like the right-click pan idea in the timeline window. Would make both horizontal and vertical scrolling a breeze, while still being very Moho-esque. Good work.

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:09 am

Rudiger wrote:What if you could collapse the timeline down to a single line that just shows wherever you have any sort of keyframe. This would be great for doing global edits to the timeline, incorporating all channels and selected layers.

Very important. That's one feature I'm missing a lot: shift keys in more than one timeline simultaneously. Anything inside the selected layer should be affected.

Of course this leads to some interesting questions, as to what about timelines where there isn't a key at the border of my selection? If the selection borders are in areas where tehre is no movement, like before/after step keys, that wouldn't be a problem - but everything else asks for a solution. Maybe a popup dialogue which asks about "just shift as-is / create key at selection in/out first, then move / show me the affected layers first"?

funksmaname · Post by **funksmaname** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:25 am

Bet Mikes glad he opened this can of worms lol

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:05 pm

funksmaname wrote:Bet Mikes glad he opened this can of worms lol

Ha ha!

I have this picture in my head of Mike sitting in front of his computer reading all of this... his eyes wide... his jaw hanging open... thinking to himself.

"Holy crap! What the heck is going on?"

-vern

Rudiger · Post by **Rudiger** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:10 pm

slowtiger wrote:
Rudiger wrote:What if you could collapse the timeline down to a single line that just shows wherever you have any sort of keyframe. This would be great for doing global edits to the timeline, incorporating all channels and selected layers.
Very important. That's one feature I'm missing a lot: shift keys in more than one timeline simultaneously. Anything inside the selected layer should be affected.

Of course this leads to some interesting questions, as to what about timelines where there isn't a key at the border of my selection? If the selection borders are in areas where tehre is no movement, like before/after step keys, that wouldn't be a problem - but everything else asks for a solution. Maybe a popup dialogue which asks about "just shift as-is / create key at selection in/out first, then move / show me the affected layers first"?

I just thought you could do edits on the collapsed timeline by pulling keyframes around like you do now. It's just that in reality, you would be moving keyframes for multiple channels/layers at once when they overlap on the same frame. This way you wouldn't have to support arbitrary selection regions.

heyvern wrote: funksmaname wrote:
Bet Mikes glad he opened this can of worms lol

Ha ha!

I have this picture in my head of Mike sitting in front of his computer reading all of this... his eyes wide... his jaw hanging open... thinking to himself.

Quote:

"Holy crap! What the heck is going on?"

-vern

We'll probably be lucky if Mike asks for our feedback again in a hurry. Anyway, some good ideas are being tossed around, so can't be a bad thing.