It was then I realized im not too sure how to do this...
is it possible?? the cat example in the moho gallery looks like its traditional, but then it could be just as easy to fake.
Anyone know how to do it?? =S
Traditional Animation in moho??
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
-
spasmodic_cheese
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:02 am
Traditional Animation in moho??
I was showing off moho 5 to some friends and they were like "yeh, wow, cool!.. can i draw frame by frame too?"
It was then I realized im not too sure how to do this...
is it possible?? the cat example in the moho gallery looks like its traditional, but then it could be just as easy to fake.
Anyone know how to do it?? =S
It was then I realized im not too sure how to do this...
is it possible?? the cat example in the moho gallery looks like its traditional, but then it could be just as easy to fake.
Anyone know how to do it?? =S
2 Possible Ways.
In the older versions, you could always set this up by using switch layers, with one sublayer for each frame. I never used it, but it could be very useful for things like walk cycles if you set up the appropriate switch file.]
But now, if I were to try it, I'd more likely use the fact that you can draw new objects at frames within the timeline. It might be a little laborious on the setup, but you could create group layers for each character, with sublayers for each individual frame. If you draw them on subsequent frames, and toggle each layers visibility only on for it's frame number, e.g frame number 6 only has sublayer 6 visible. Then you can go around and turn visibility on for previous or subsequent sub-layers for onionskinning. Actually, as I just tried it, you can't use the actual timeline onionskinning to do this, but that might be a good feature. Maybe a checkbox to allow onionskinning for invisible layers in the selected group in the timeline for the people who wan't to do more trad animation. Pretty specialized but what the hell. Then, at the end, I don't imagine it would be to hard to rig up a script to automatically set up sequential visibility keyframes for each sublayer. You could then move keyframes around for timing, copy keyframes for cycles, a have a good ink-and-paint for less than anyone else, along with all the other bells and whistles I like. For that matter, after cycles are set up, you could go in and use the point animation or the ability to add new points and shapes down the timeline to add variations during the cycles easily without having to mess with the original drawing.
Well, I just got home from an incredibly long day at work, so I hope that makes some sense, that's whatall popped into my head. It's one concept.
--Brian
But now, if I were to try it, I'd more likely use the fact that you can draw new objects at frames within the timeline. It might be a little laborious on the setup, but you could create group layers for each character, with sublayers for each individual frame. If you draw them on subsequent frames, and toggle each layers visibility only on for it's frame number, e.g frame number 6 only has sublayer 6 visible. Then you can go around and turn visibility on for previous or subsequent sub-layers for onionskinning. Actually, as I just tried it, you can't use the actual timeline onionskinning to do this, but that might be a good feature. Maybe a checkbox to allow onionskinning for invisible layers in the selected group in the timeline for the people who wan't to do more trad animation. Pretty specialized but what the hell. Then, at the end, I don't imagine it would be to hard to rig up a script to automatically set up sequential visibility keyframes for each sublayer. You could then move keyframes around for timing, copy keyframes for cycles, a have a good ink-and-paint for less than anyone else, along with all the other bells and whistles I like. For that matter, after cycles are set up, you could go in and use the point animation or the ability to add new points and shapes down the timeline to add variations during the cycles easily without having to mess with the original drawing.
Well, I just got home from an incredibly long day at work, so I hope that makes some sense, that's whatall popped into my head. It's one concept.
--Brian
Re: Traditional Animation in moho??
Not too sure what moho 5 can do in terms of drawing frame by frame, but 4.6 can't do it in a straight-forward way. The only thing traditional about the cat animation was the animators degree course, it's all bones animation and a bit of point-level animation to keep everything in shape.spasmodic_cheese wrote: the cat example in the moho gallery looks like its traditional, but then it could be just as easy to fake.
Anyone know how to do it?? =S
-
spasmodic_cheese
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:02 am
If an exposure sheet were added to the palets, then that would make traditional drawing much easier.
If you aren't sure what I'm talking about, check out the following threads:
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14
Basically the same request, just one's in the scripting area and another's in the request area. It could help push Moho out of the hobby arena and into the professional arena as far as features go. At the moment it has some very cool tools (like bones and particles, and an extrememly nice 3D camera setup) that no one else has, but simple animation tasks are a big pain (traditional frame by frame animaiton, adjusting animation curves with tangents, inadequate gradients). So close to perfect...
________
Zx14 vs hayabusa
If you aren't sure what I'm talking about, check out the following threads:
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14
Basically the same request, just one's in the scripting area and another's in the request area. It could help push Moho out of the hobby arena and into the professional arena as far as features go. At the moment it has some very cool tools (like bones and particles, and an extrememly nice 3D camera setup) that no one else has, but simple animation tasks are a big pain (traditional frame by frame animaiton, adjusting animation curves with tangents, inadequate gradients). So close to perfect...
________
Zx14 vs hayabusa
Last edited by kdiddy13 on Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
spasmodic_cheese
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:02 am
Think you hit the nail with that. I dont really need traditional animation in moho because theres so many other apps that do it, considering moho is an animation tool i thought there might be a better way to go about this.kdiddy13 wrote:At the moment it has some very cool tools (like bones and particles, and an extrememly nice 3D camera setup) that no one else has, but simple animation tasks are a big pain (traditional frame by frame animaiton, adjusting animation curves with tangents, inadequate gradients). So close to perfect...
Time will tell
How so very true this all is.
Going from the easyness of frame by frame animation in flash into this was a big step for me. I had to learn not to keep clicking on the layers, and then there were like a billion different ones anyways. It is very confusing at first...
So very close.........
Going from the easyness of frame by frame animation in flash into this was a big step for me. I had to learn not to keep clicking on the layers, and then there were like a billion different ones anyways. It is very confusing at first...
So very close.........
Fear Me Mortals
Getting back to original discussion...
Not so sure about V5 to be creating objects on any frame > 0. That is a good question for LM, since I see the silloute of the shape on the frames < than the frame where the shape is drawn. Is it a trick, LM, and you are undercoverly creating shapes on frame 0 and then setting visible property on the frame where drawn?
Anyway, If i had a dialog where i can set visibility "duration", then I would select a set of frames, and set that value to 1. But that will permit to create too many drawings (I would tell not needed).
I would use bones for not so changing parts of the animations, and particular drawings for very changing ones (like hands and finger movements). Those I put in another layer and control the rest of the arm synchronization using also bones. Simple.
Then, of course, onion skins will be a great help.
w-
Not so sure about V5 to be creating objects on any frame > 0. That is a good question for LM, since I see the silloute of the shape on the frames < than the frame where the shape is drawn. Is it a trick, LM, and you are undercoverly creating shapes on frame 0 and then setting visible property on the frame where drawn?
Anyway, If i had a dialog where i can set visibility "duration", then I would select a set of frames, and set that value to 1. But that will permit to create too many drawings (I would tell not needed).
I would use bones for not so changing parts of the animations, and particular drawings for very changing ones (like hands and finger movements). Those I put in another layer and control the rest of the arm synchronization using also bones. Simple.
Then, of course, onion skins will be a great help.
w-
I guess I did speak too soon. Actually, I find it kind of strange that a new object's outline created down the timeline can still be seen on an earlier frame, even if the layer has been set to invisible. If a layer is invisible, it should be, so I think that should go in the bug category. It would certainly bollox up my whole sleep deprived concept. Wmartinez, I suspect you hit the nail on the head there, but it shouldn't be seen at all unless you want it to be. In the traditional animation type of use, one frame is one frame. Control to set the visibility of an individual drawing (layer) to multiple frames could certainly be useful for some time effects. Most times, you are probably going to use Moho for it's vector manipulation strengths, which is why I thought that writing a Lua script would be a viable way to go without making LM code for a lot of options. At least, until there is a stable release. I also thought that using this type of technique for things like hands and heads, and then using bones and such for the rest would be a good solution. But sometimes, for the look you want, you just have to draw the frames.
What I'm looking for is to have the most complete one app solution for the the prjects I want to do. Some times, I might want to do something that as closely imitates traditional animation as possible. Which means looking like physical ink and paint applied to sheets of acetate. In this area I think Moho could aquit it self just fine. The 3D camera gives you stuff that you just couldn't do on an Oxberry, but I think you can also hit that old multiplane look just fine. The camera focus settings are great, but I'd really much prefer if they were something I could keyframe as opposed to being a Project Setting.
As much as I think that more flexible gradient settings and the possibility of true bezier controls would be nice (I think the Bezier is out) I don't think that either really have any place in the context of using Moho to achieve the look of traditional animation. Much of this I attribute to the use, and usefulness, of Flash to some styles of animation for some time. Which is fine. But in this discussion, I think there should be a wealth of ways to get to where the topic asked. My favorite old school animation is the old Max Fleisher "Superman" cartoons. All the colors are flat, the shape shading between one color and another within outlines, and altogether beautiful. (note* on the characters--I wouldn't mind more doodads for the backgrounds). If it were easy to combine the bones and switches with hand drawn animation, I'd use it much more, and it would overcome most of the detriments Moho has in this area. I doubt it would be more than a few percent of any piece I made, but I 'spect they'd be the money shots.
--Brian
What I'm looking for is to have the most complete one app solution for the the prjects I want to do. Some times, I might want to do something that as closely imitates traditional animation as possible. Which means looking like physical ink and paint applied to sheets of acetate. In this area I think Moho could aquit it self just fine. The 3D camera gives you stuff that you just couldn't do on an Oxberry, but I think you can also hit that old multiplane look just fine. The camera focus settings are great, but I'd really much prefer if they were something I could keyframe as opposed to being a Project Setting.
As much as I think that more flexible gradient settings and the possibility of true bezier controls would be nice (I think the Bezier is out) I don't think that either really have any place in the context of using Moho to achieve the look of traditional animation. Much of this I attribute to the use, and usefulness, of Flash to some styles of animation for some time. Which is fine. But in this discussion, I think there should be a wealth of ways to get to where the topic asked. My favorite old school animation is the old Max Fleisher "Superman" cartoons. All the colors are flat, the shape shading between one color and another within outlines, and altogether beautiful. (note* on the characters--I wouldn't mind more doodads for the backgrounds). If it were easy to combine the bones and switches with hand drawn animation, I'd use it much more, and it would overcome most of the detriments Moho has in this area. I doubt it would be more than a few percent of any piece I made, but I 'spect they'd be the money shots.
--Brian
-
spasmodic_cheese
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:02 am
traditional 2D with bones and switches
After reading this post, thought that I would offer my views. I have used Moho since it was available to BeOS (wish there was update 
). I created a short animatic for an animation that I am helping others to develop. We started off with the hand drawn keyframes (27 in all), scanned them in. I then broke those drawings up into seperate layers depending on the the animation needed (head turn, arm moving, etc.). Then I brought all the different layers into Moho. I boned the needed layers for movement and then used switch layers (depending on needs) to show other elements and movement. Then using Moho's Lip Sync functions created mouth layers to sync with audio. Exported each scene out and then edited in video editor.
Just thought that hearing about a different work method might give some people ideas and see that not every frame needs to be drawn. Keep in mind though that this animatic is a work in progress and more may have to be done to clean up some problem animation areas.
If you would like to see animatic, visit http://www.whoarethenine.com/raulfight2.html
). I created a short animatic for an animation that I am helping others to develop. We started off with the hand drawn keyframes (27 in all), scanned them in. I then broke those drawings up into seperate layers depending on the the animation needed (head turn, arm moving, etc.). Then I brought all the different layers into Moho. I boned the needed layers for movement and then used switch layers (depending on needs) to show other elements and movement. Then using Moho's Lip Sync functions created mouth layers to sync with audio. Exported each scene out and then edited in video editor. Just thought that hearing about a different work method might give some people ideas and see that not every frame needs to be drawn. Keep in mind though that this animatic is a work in progress and more may have to be done to clean up some problem animation areas.
If you would like to see animatic, visit http://www.whoarethenine.com/raulfight2.html
a question for ernesttx
Your using Moho for animatics, can you tell us whet software or method will use in the production?
Moho animatic
Hey Ming,
That is still an unanswered question. Right now the animators have the storyboards and will have to wait until they are finished and I have to see what I have to work with. But, I have done some tests on my own and Moho will be in the production pipeline somewhere. Awaiting version 5 to see what has changed and what the workflow will be like. But, Moho will definately be used to acquire a moving camera effect due to its 3D camera moving ability. Will update as time goes by. Thanks.
That is still an unanswered question. Right now the animators have the storyboards and will have to wait until they are finished and I have to see what I have to work with. But, I have done some tests on my own and Moho will be in the production pipeline somewhere. Awaiting version 5 to see what has changed and what the workflow will be like. But, Moho will definately be used to acquire a moving camera effect due to its 3D camera moving ability. Will update as time goes by. Thanks.
Congratuliations Ernesttx
Congratuliations Ernesttx, your work is very interesting. It should be an example of what can be done with limited resources and the help of computer generated animation.