A decent Polyline-style tool

[animatioNZ]

I use Moho, The-Tab, Toonboom and Flash but I really prefer to animate in Moho. Having said that, I really HATE the ADD POINT TOOL. Having worked with toonboom, Freehand, Illustrator, Xara etc I am used to a reasonable amount of control over points and specially curve points.

I would love a tool that allows a click-drag to shape the curve and has handles to adjust the curve (like Flash, Freehand, Illustrator etc).

I assume the way Moho handles points is radically different to the other programs and it may not be possible to add this function. Could LM elaborate on if a revamped line tool is likely to be added to Moho in the future?

Moho really has a lot of advantages over the other animation programs and the improvements in the latest release are great but the lack of control over points prevents me from using it on any major projects. I do use it for cutout animation but I'd love to use it on purely vector projects as well.

[7feet]

Okay, just my take on it. Moho uses a particular kinda spline for lines, that isn't much like most other graphic design proggies. Everybody always asks for Beziers, but I don't thinkl that'll ever really work with the process as it stands.

But I've messed with the code in the Freehand tool and don't mind doin' some more. My impression of what yer asking -- easy access to point curvature (the easiest analogue to beziers we got) inside the other tools... And thats totally do-able. Gimme a minute, and if I'm not getting it correctly, describe better.

[Toontoonz]

Working with lines in Moho is like a sculpture working in clay - one has to use several tools to push the line around to get something that may work.

In other vector programs it is so easy to get a nice clean curve or sharp corner.
With Moho it is not - time is money and for me Moho takes too much time to draw and adjust the drawing afterwards.

My most unfavorite Moho drawing tool: Curvature.
When one uses it it effects the curve on both sides of the point. How does one only change the curve on one side of the point in Moho???

animationZ: Have you tried the mis-named (in my opinon) script called "Split Curve". (It should be called "Add points"). This script will more safely, without ruining your line and better add points between your points on the line than the ADD POINT TOOL.
You can find it in the Main Menu at Scripts>Draw>Split Curve.

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Warning: what follows is my technically-unqualifed-to-know opinion and 2 cents.
I don´t know the technical reasons why Moho and other vector programs are different in their interpretation of a vector, but my feeling is that with other vector programs each shape, line, etc is a little vector-type area, whereas Moho vectors seems to be mask-type vectors; i.e. color field underneath and a mask-vector over the top to reveal the colored shape or line. And because of this difference in defining or implementing what a vector is this causes situations when bringing in .ai files and the implementation of tools.

[animatioNZ]

Thanks for your posts. I agree with Toontoonz. Getting an accurate curve in Moho is difficult and really does slow me down. Animating is a slow process at the best of times and anything that slows you down is a problem.

I have tried the Split Curve script and this helps a little but generally I prefer as few points as possible, it makes animating the shapes a lot smoother.

I mainly use the Add Points tool rather than the pen tool because I like smooth curves and bold geometric shapes rather than hand drawn-style lines.

I spent a few hours yesterday drawing the same character in Toon Boom, The-Tab, Flash and Moho trying to decide which program to use for a 20 second web animation and, much as I really wanted to use Moho because of the ease of actual animation, I just can't accurately recreate the shapes of the body in Moho. ToonBoom was the easiest to get the shapes right with, followed closely by Flash.

Since ToonBoom doesn't do shape tweening that means the artwork will be quicker to create but the animation will be slower than Moho. I might have to resort to Flash again.

Damn!

[Toontoonz]

I don´t have any ToonBoom products, but like you I wish I could do the animation in Moho. Unfortunately it is too much work to try to draw everything again in Moho after first drawing it in Illustrator (and clients being so picky about colors, shapes, etc) so I end up going to Flash. And some of the new things in Flash are nice. (Hoping they will make Flash more animator friendly in the future.)

I keep experimenting with Moho trying to figure out how to work around the vector drawing situations and jump on a new Moho update hoping for something that will solve the vector illustration program file into Moho vector program but....

Well, I can´t see vector illustrations ever coming into Moho perfectly from another vector program. Moho appears to be too different in the way it implements a "vector". If Moho could only solve this vector drawing problem(s), the "one sound file only" situation, and the ability to have different scenes like Flash, then Moho would be a killer product.
With ToonBoom Solo adding "bones", other vector programs can´t be far behind.

[animatioNZ]

I haven't upgraded to the very latest version of Flash. Is there anything new that is a big improvement for animators?

According to a letter I got from Adobe yesterday they intend in the future for all the programs they inherited from Macromedia to offer the same interface as the Adobe products. That could be interesting...

[kingbones]

I challenge anybody to draw an ellipse with the ellipse tool then add a point to it without massive distortion.
Also joining a line to an ellipse (or circle or even a square) causes the same distortion.
Importing an ellipse from xara as an illustrator file seems to give you an 8 point ellipse which then causes minimal distortion but it shouldn't be necessary.
In fact the drawing tools are lacking in the normal vector handles (a massive handicap imho) and the sharp points, smooth points and curvature tools don't succeed in rectifying the situation.

[Toontoonz]

From my personal experience and opinion the ADD POINTS tool is really just for drawing a shape or a line. If you use it to "ADD POINTS" in between the points of any curved line/shape it just really screws thngs up.
(In my opinion the ADD POINTS tool should be renamed the "MAKE SHAPE OR ADD POINTS AT THE END OF A LINE" Tool.)

The way to add points to a curved line is use the mis-named (my opinion) script called Split Curve.
You can find it in the Main Menu at Scripts>Draw>Split Curve.
It will add a point(s) between a point without (it seems) effecting the curve of the line.


Try breaking a circle, oval or other curvy line with the DELETE EDGE and watch the loss of shape craziness begin!

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My challenge: You have a curvy line or shape with several points in it. Pick any point and try to make one side the line straight and the other side of the line not lose or change it´s curvature. I believe it is impossible to do in Moho.

I try the CURVATURE tool, but it changes the curve on both sides of the point, not one side.

I look forward to someone showing me how to do this in Moho.

[kingbones]

So I tried the 'split curve' option and you have to do it on the whole ellipse with at least two points in between each existing point.
Otherwise exactly the same distortion.

Even with the two point option there is some distortion but very little.

Should you then join a line (with the auto magnet option on) to any part of said ellipse (circle or square) other than one of the newly created or the original points you once again get distortion which is not correctable using the various tools provided.

Once you get beyond the hazardous drawing tools and the tricky fill and line operations (which can add masses of spurious data) the program works really well.
Layers, bones, tweening etc. excellent.

I tried Toontoonz's challenge and it appears impossible without placing an extra point close to the point in question; and that is tricky.
Oh for the standard bezier tools.

[Toontoonz]

In my challenge above:

My challenge: You have a curvy line or shape with several points in it. Pick any point and try to make one side the line straight and the other side of the line not lose or change it´s curvature. I believe it is impossible to do in Moho.

Here is an example showing what I mean. I did this in Adobe Illustrator (one could use any other vector program to do the same). It took about two seconds to go from before to after using Adobe´s bezier curve tools.
One can´t do this in Moho...or can they?

click to see larger view

[animatioNZ]

Could LM comment on if a standard bezier-style tool is ever likely to be added to the toolset. This would solve most problems that myself and others are having.

Most of us use some other drawing program (Illustrator, Freehand, Xara, CorelDraw, Canvas etc) and the bezier tool is so much a part of our mindset that trying to draw without it can be extremely difficult.

[mr. blaaa]

BTW: i DON'T support this feature request.

[Toontoonz]

mr. blaaa - You don´t support the request that one can adjust the lines better, quicker, and more precisely in Moho?
Why not?

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(My gut feeling only, but because Moho appears to create vector lines and shapes totally differently from other vector programs I don´t think Moho could even implement a bezier-type drawing system that is standard in all other vector graphics programs.
This situation with drawing tools in Moho all been brought up several times before and if I recall correctly there was never a positive response on feature requests regarding the drawing tools in Moho. )

[mr. blaaa]

mr. blaaa - You don´t support the request that one can adjust the lines better, quicker, and more precisely in Moho?

Well, because i think this "uniqueness" can be kept.
And i don't think an improvement as requested can be realized that simple.
And i don't want any other features moho has right now, to be dropped or under-developed because a line-control-improvement is being developed.

What we need is: improvement in render for 3d, more control over switches, improvement for actions, and improvement of the bones (right now there is much trouble with dynamic bones for example).

If anyone can't live without the drawing tools of photoshop etc. there are always workarounds like graph tablets, or making the drawings in other softwares.

I don't say i never ever want an improvement to the drawing tools, but at the status quo i can't support that request, 'cause it's not that neccessary for the moment.

I hope that doesnt sound too ignorant or something.

[Lost Marble]

Here is an example showing what I mean. I did this in Adobe Illustrator (one could use any other vector program to do the same). It took about two seconds to go from before to after using Adobe´s bezier curve tools.
One can´t do this in Moho...or can they?

click to see larger view

No, you can't do this in Moho without adding extra points. The curvature on both sides of a point in Moho is always the same - the control handles that you have in other vector programs are adjusted automatically by Moho, and you don't have access to them.

However, you can get similar results by adding more points in areas that require extra control.