Frame by frame animations

[spasmodic_cheese]

I think frame-by-frame mode should be a plug-in, not aspart of MoHo. That way, the people who want it, can get it, and the people that don't want it, don't have to install it. Does that sound like a better idea?

Yeh, we wil lhave to wait for moho 5 release before we find out how far we can make lua go.

[stalti]

Hi 7feet, cribble!

<< I think frame-by-frame mode should be a plug-in, not aspart of MoHo. That way, the people who want it, can get it, and the people that don't want it, don't have to install it. Does that sound like a better idea?>>

Hm, since the api-docs arent't released yet it's a bit difficult to know how far you can go with scripting. After reading some of the lua-files i'm not sure about that ...
Basically i think it doesn't matter whether you have a 'plugin' (i.e. script in that case) that enables you to do trad-animation or if these possibilites are hardwired into the application itselft ... for the user there will be almost no difference (except he has do download the code)... so that sounds like a good idea to me...
BUT ... it depends on how far you can come with scripting ... depends on Moho's developers.
Is it on the other hand efficient to code a stand-alone application for Moho to get trad-support? The developers at LM obviously did a lot of hard work and they did it great. So why should one duplicate their work (e.g. vector computations and so on ...)

I've written some test applications for a pencil tester ... well, actually that is not too hard but it means a lot of work ... here the point again is: Does Moho support some kind of trad-layer or something like this with the appropriate onion-skinning and so on ....

... you'd get another stand-alone app ..... so my preferred way would be Moho-Lua-Scripting ...
Hm, i really don't know!!!!!!

Greetings, Stalti

[stalti]

Hi, spasmodic_cheese too (sorry, didn't want to exlude anyone) ...

Im with you! That's what i wanted to say!!!!!!!

[kdiddy13]

Why a stand-alone or plug-in (well plug-in isn't so bad). Why not just another palet? You don't need to open it if you don't want to (no one makes you open the character/paragraph palet in Photoshop, but it sure is handy to have for those who use it).

From 7feet: the tweening ability of the switch layers still depends on each sublayer having the same number of points. So I don't believe it's gonna work with anything like hand drawn, frame by frame stuff.

I think my original point was that the switch layers present some pretty cool tools and functionality already built into Moho. One of them being that you could copy one layer to another, adjust it's points and have the switch Tween function animate between the points, thus saving drawing time. But other than that, you're right, tweening only works on layers with identical point sets.

As for the Lua scripting? Whooo. Good luck. LM has already hinted that such a thing may be stretching Moho's capabilities. ( http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12 second post ) But the best way to get someone to do something is to tell them they can't do it...
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SHIP SALE

[stalti]

Hi ...

Why a stand-alone or plug-in (well plug-in isn't so bad). Why not just another palet? You don't need to open it if you don't want to (no one makes you open the character/paragraph palet in Photoshop, but it sure is handy to have for those who use it).

But thats's the point ... actually (or better ... now) you can't write plug-ins (i agree, plug-in isn't bad at all!);
at the moment I'm just trying to figure out how to write a simple dialog for moho in lua-script. (Well, some simple steps first ... reading code is much more easier than writing it ... my first plugin, so to say) ... not to speak about another palet ... (besides that I don't think that it's possible to do that with lua) ...
is there a Moho-SDK for writing plugins
(A plug-in is not a script!!!)

a new palet would be great, but is that supported by moho?
a lot of questions arise if you really try to implement such features

I think my original point was that the switch layers present some pretty cool tools and functionality already built into Moho. One of them being that you could copy one layer to another, adjust it's points and have the switch Tween function animate between the points, thus saving drawing time. But other than that, you're right, tweening only works on layers with identical point sets.

As for the Lua scripting? Whooo. Good luck.

Yes, switch layers certainly present some pretty cool tools, but you don't really get support for more trad-animation.
(Look for the Tab or TBS) ... how about the onion-skinnig for example.
(Thank you for the link to the 'LUA capabilites' thread) ...
well, i guess that it will have to be a mixture between 'hardwired' and 'scripted'.

Nevertheless ... how would YOU do traditional animation in Moho (frame-by-frame) ... how about onion skinning? (I really don't know I should do that ... well, I'm also just learning to speak 'Moho'.
The switch layers approach is not bad, but ....

Perhaps there might be a way to automize ...
What would be needed in detail to accomplish the task of 'Making Moho work for trad-animation'?

Nice greetings, Stalti

[kdiddy13]

can't write plug-ins (i agree, plug-in isn't bad at all!);
at the moment I'm just trying to figure out how to write a simple dialog for moho in lua-script

Sorry, I was basing my comments on "Feature Requests". The thread I mentioned earlier, under "Scripting" may be a better place to carry on a discussion on the possiblities of using Lua.
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HERBAL SHOP

[wmartinez]

Here again, we have 2 options in the discussion.
1- To see what must be added or changed to Moho to facilitate trad Animation.
2- To see how can we accomplish trad animation in Moho as it is right now.

a - Moho includes time manipulation with timeline (and in frames!)
b - Moho includes layers and groups, which can be used as complex cells
c - Moho includes Onion skins displayable from any frame and filetered by any layer.

A - Moho lacks an easy way to set layers visible only for 1 frame (or part of the layer)
B - Moho lacks an easy way to order layers in time

We can focus on discussing if LUA can help to get those "lacks" out of the way.
Or am I missing something?
w-

[kdiddy13]

We can focus on discussing if LUA can help to get those "lacks" out of the way.
Or am I missing something?

Sorry, my intent wasn't to shut down a discussion on whether Lua could add on the functionality that some of us are looking for. I had intended to only point out that there's a scripting forum to discuss the use of Lua.

In retrospect, I think you're right (and I was mistaken), the discussion probably does need to take place here first. As the programmers amongst decide to take up the cause, the technical side of the discussion could move over to scripting forum.

The other option is to hope that if there's enough interest that Lost Marble takes notice and adds the functionality in a future release of Moho (I think fixing 5.0's bugs takes precidence, but it doesn't hurt to ask).

Hey, new forum, new rules of posting etiquette. I'm learning, too.
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WHOLESALE VAPORIZER

[cribble]

Well, someone said it earlier, but i think it should be a layer. When you select the layer, it changes the timeline to a different mode - so you now have a frame by frame mode to do your business. But then again, you have to think to yourself, can Lua delve that deep within MoHo to change its interface in such a demanding way?? I'm not exactly a scripting expert (infact, i've never scripted really), but i don't know whever lua sounds up to it....

[wmartinez]

Please don't forget actions.
An action is a separate timeline, object owner that can be referenced or even copied.

[stalti]

Hello! How are you!?

I skipped away last week ... really tons of work!
And again very refreshing to read your pros and cons ...

The last reply (i read) was from kdiddy13 ...
so i'll start with wmartinez ...
very good info, on how we could get trad!
(i'm not speaking moho fluently, so I had to ask for solutions and your reply IS a starting point ... also for programming.
So I first have to figure that out and just try ....

kdiddy13 ...

The other option is to hope that if there's enough interest that Lost Marble takes notice and adds the functionality in a future release of Moho (I think fixing 5.0's bugs takes precidence, but it doesn't hurt to ask).

Wow, at the moment I'm writing this we've got 85% .... and a lots of views if not the most on this forum, so I guess the eager developers at LostMarble WILL notice (well, i guess they allready do ... certainly not an easy task to implement that in Moho ... the functionality is there but somehow they have to keep up with the system they developed and keep it consistent ... besides that they have to trace for bugs in version 5
)

wmartinez:

Please don't forget actions.

cribble:

I'm not exactly a scripting expert (infact, i've never scripted really), but i don't know whever lua sounds up to it....

Yes, that's the point! We have to wait for the api-docs. (Even more experienced scripters have to.)
As far as I can tell (from exploring the scripts) LM tries to pack a lot of functionality into their scripts, but I REALLY don't know whether it's possible make trad possible with LUA alone ... and I REALLY DON'T think so!!!! (LUA is a scripting language ... well designed, very cool but a scripting language ... that alone makes me think it's not possible/useful ... because of speed!!!!
Even now: if you look at the tool-palette ... you can see it refresh (at least on my PC, it's not very fast))

But why not ask the developers NOW!!!!! (I HOPE THEY READ THAT !)

So:
DEAR MOHO DEVELOPERS!!!
DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A POSSIBILITY TO DO FRAME-BY-FRAME-ANIMATION IN MOHO THE TRADITIONAL WAY (XSHEETS WOULD BE GREAT TOO!!!!! AND A BIT MORE CONTROL OVER THE CAMERA ... just numeric input fields for now (AND YES: WHY NOT COPY SOME FEATURES of ToonBoomStudio ... it has a lot of great features ... Moho is so close ... it is only lacking these more traditional features! )
OF COURSE WE KNOW THAT MOHO 5 IS BETA ... WE JUST WANTED TO ASK WHETHER WE COULD GET THAT IN THE NEXT VERSION?

HAVE A VERY NICE DAY!!!! YOU DO A GREAT JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do you think about that? (Probably I made some mistakes, ... no native speaker ... please correct me!)

Today I got my copy of Richard William's "Animator's Survival Kit" ... very impressing ... i love it! What do you think about it?
Has a lot's of interesting ideas about feature requests :-)
(why not try to integrate some kind of more traditional timing charts within Moho ... ok, just kidding ... i don't want to change to Miscellaneous Chit-Chat)

Nice Greetings, Stalti!!!!

[AcouSvnt]

I would think for now the best way to incorporate frame by frame into Moho would be to import something created elsewhere as a video layer with alpha transparency. Or are you determined to use Moho's drawing tools for these images?

[Lost Marble]

So:
DEAR MOHO DEVELOPERS!!!
DO YOU THINK THERE WILL BE A POSSIBILITY TO DO FRAME-BY-FRAME-ANIMATION IN MOHO THE TRADITIONAL WAY (XSHEETS WOULD BE GREAT TOO!!!!! (AND YES: WHY NOT COPY SOME FEATURES of ToonBoomStudio ... it has a lot of great features ... Moho is so close ... it is only lacking these more traditional features! )

I think this was already answered in another thread about frame-by-frame animation. Anyway, no, I don't see how this could be added using the current scripting interface. Scripting in Moho 5 lets you add tools and menu commands in the Script menu, but it's not the case that the entire user interface is controlled by Lua scripts. So, adding a feature that requires major changes to the user interface wouldn't be possible.

Now, keep in mind that Moho 5 is the first version of Moho to have any kind of scripting at all, so in the future the scripting may extend further into the program, allowing you to modify the interface in more significant ways. For now though, what you want to do just isn't possible.

As far as copying features from Toon Boom Studio...Moho was never intended as a traditional frame-by-frame traditional animation tool. My feeling is that Moho is interesting exactly because it is different. Well-crafted traditional animation can be fantastic, but that's not what Moho is about.

[spasmodic_cheese]

I feel moho should keep its uniqueness in full

There have been several workarounds suggested to accomplish trad animation in moho.
None anymore-so tedious than doing traditional animation.

Thats definatly good enough

As for building a LUA script:
How about a modified version of the switch layer tool, that let you write more info on each frame or whatever exposure sheets do, and turned on onion skinning forawrd one and backward one from current position. (or user definable). and maybe just an automated script to create keyrame on each frame?.

[jeff]

Just a quick point about inbetweening in Tab. In that program you can indeed inbetween from keys that have a differing number of control points. It's a very simple trick - it just generates extra random "dummy" points on the key with the least points to make them both the same number.

Before you get too excited; needless to say, the resulting inbetween frames are just a weird mess of floating lines, nothing to do with the way a human inbetweener would work and frankly a total waste of time.

When I looked at the program, it lacked a far more important function, namely the means of inbetweening transparency and or colour!

jeff