Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

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Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby justoshow » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:35 am

Using ASP 11

Hey everyone, I need HELP! So I just started using advanced styles for my characters. I've named each style 'character name_object'. The issue I'm having is when I import my two characters, they'll end up with the same styles. I've searched but I didn't find anything that worked for me. Any tips, advice, or fixes for this? Thanks in advance!

Do anyone know what the maximum amount styles are? That may be my problem.

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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby hayasidist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:53 am

let me try to understand what you're doing here... do you have a "generic" rig that you import twice and then configure for two similar but different characters? But you've used styles on the "generic", so each character needs to have its own version of each style?
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby chucky » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:08 pm

Well, well well.
Well.
Import the second rig and click unlink styles.
This should keep them separate , but all the styles will be separate, so if you have a uniform, they will now become separated.
It is all there is for now , I'm hoping for these issues to be addressed too.
Unlink is all we have for now.
Relink styles with same name would be good too.
I suggest writing for SM for a feature request :wink:
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby justoshow » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:15 pm

hayasidist wrote:let me try to understand what you're doing here... do you have a "generic" rig that you import twice and then configure for two similar but different characters? But you've used styles on the "generic", so each character needs to have its own version of each style?


No each character is different. It may look like a generic rig, but it's not. They do have their own styles. It seems like "Jamie Styles" wanted to start after the "bathroom" styles but I think I may have to many per rig. Hope that makes sense.

Import the second rig and click unlink styles.


I don't have that feature on my version. :(
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby hayasidist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:38 pm

ok ... did you copy Justin to make Jamie (or vice versa) and then rename the styles in one rig??

I don't know of a limit on the number of styles - (other than perhaps as limited by the maximum whole number that your computer architecture can support) - but I think there _are_ significant problem with styles that originate from the same initial source. (Certainly true in the case where you "import generic by reference" and configure imported copies differently.)

==

"Unlink Shared Styles" is a check box that appears on the "import moho object" dialogue box -- not sure if it was there in AS11.
[Edit: It wasn't!! so AS will behave as though the checkbox is NOT checked -- see below]

===

I've just tried the following:

create a simple shape with one style called "alice_style" -- let's say yellow fill.
save that moho doc as alice
copy that moho doc and call the copy bob
rename the style in bob "bob_style" and change its properties to (say) blue
mess with the paths / points etc as much as you like
save that moho doc as bob

open a new third doc
import a moho object from alice -- and you get the layer with a yellow fill and the style "alice_style*
import a moho object from bob -- "unlink" NOT checked -- and you get a layer with a yellow fill and only one style ("alice_style*)
(delete that imported layer)
import a moho object from bob -- "unlink" checked -- and you get a layer with a blue fill and two styles


IOW - even though the names are different, moho thinks they're the same style -- I won't get into technicalities at this stage as to why...
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby chucky » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:36 pm

11 didn't have this?
This came up for me while I was making Tern Tale.. luckily we had a guardian angel in the form of Mike Clifton, who had 'unlink shared styles"' within a few hours.
The reason for the style conflict is because it has a name we see and an ID we don't
Unlink gives the style new ID's. It was a last minute addition to V12 and was a life safer, but it could do with some follow up ( as any new feature gets when complications arise).
Hopefully the new dev's are thoughtful as Mike was.
You might need to update to V12 or just make new styles from scratch which is Ok if not too many shapes share the same styles.... Obviously switch layers can be an issue if there are many... believe me I feel your pain. More than you can know.
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby justoshow » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:12 pm

but I think there _are_ significant problem with styles that originate from the same initial source.
~chucky

So is turns out that the styles although are differently named, some of the style codes (in the raw style file) are linking them together (UUID i think). I did copy some the objects from one character to the other and modified them and renamed them, but ASP don't like that. The 'unlink' feature would be of help for me but my version lacks that. I may experiment with some scripting. I have a programming background, but I've never used LUA before. We shall see.
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby hayasidist » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:35 pm

justoshow wrote:
but I think there _are_ significant problem with styles that originate from the same initial source.
~chucky

So is turns out that the styles although are differently named, some of the style codes (in the raw style file) are linking them together (UUID i think). I did copy some the objects from one character to the other and modified them and renamed them, but ASP don't like that. The 'unlink' feature would be of help for me but my version lacks that. I may experiment with some scripting. I have a programming background, but I've never used LUA before. We shall see.


yes - I also think it's because they keep identical UUIDs.

IMO there are some serious issues with the scripting interface for styles -- but ... please ask for help if you wish and/or post your successes!!!

Here's a couple of "entry points" in case you've not seen the unofficial scripting documentation (which, again IMO, is better than the official write-up) (but bear in mind some features may not be available in 11):

http://www.mohoscripting.com/index.php? ... me=M_Style
and
http://www.mohoscripting.com/index.php? ... Doc&id=765

Good luck!
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby justoshow » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:55 pm

I FIXED IT! With the help of you all and the people of Moho Pros on FB. I've learned a few things about exporting styles and I've also condensed my styles to about 6 styles per character. I had to delete and re-create the styles to assign them new id's. Still going to look into scripting though, sounds fun!

Thanks!
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby chucky » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:02 am

Justo would you mind sharing the fix?
I've been having a nightmare with this issue and I don't have any clue about programming.

I would really appreciate it.
Thanks :)

Edit : sorry I see, you had to recreate the styles.. that won't work well for my problem.. Thanks.. I'm glad you got it sorted 8)
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby justoshow » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:55 pm

chucky wrote:Justo would you mind sharing the fix?
I've been having a nightmare with this issue and I don't have any clue about programming.

I would really appreciate it.
Thanks :)

Edit : sorry I see, you had to recreate the styles.. that won't work well for my problem.. Thanks.. I'm glad you got it sorted 8)



Oh Chucky I hope you find a solution for your issue.
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby Greenlaw » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:55 pm

I think the Styles system needs to be revisited by the developers.

Earlier this year, I had an assignment where I had to animate about 40 cats. There were actually I think about 6 cats, each with different color schemes, but they were initially all based on the a single 'master' cat. To create the variations, I created multiple copies of the original cat project and altered the Styles.

When the cats were referenced into the animation project, this appeared to work at first. But later on, I needed to make some minor rig changes, and when I updated the references, the Styles all broke, with some cats adopting the color schemes of other cats. That's when I realized the cats probably retained the style IDs regardless of the changes I made in each different 'master' cat. I briefly looked into editing the Style ID's in a text editor--I did find the line to change but that seemed like a hassle to do for every style in every cat version. In the end, I wound up making these 'minor' rig/art changes directly to each imported cat that needed it, which kinda defeated my reason to use references in the first place.

I guess I could have avoided the problem if I completely removed the styles in each cat project, and created brand new ones for each variation. But there should be an easier way to deal with that.

I think Moho needs a button in the Styles panel to force an ID change to a selected Style when necessary. It would also help if Moho showed the style ID in the panel, or in an 'Info' panel. (Actually, an Info panel that showed other item ID's and project statistics would be useful for all kinds of troubleshooting.)

TBH, I've been shying away from using too many styles in a character. Usually, I just start off with a Stroke-only style and make non-style variations of that. This is mainly so I can still make global changes to the line weights as needed. Beyond that, I might make styles only for things that are most likely to change during production, which really isn't a lot. I'm losing the ability to change fills globally but fortunately I'm not doing that very often. (I probably just jinxed myself by saying that.) :)
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby chucky » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:48 am

Hi Dennis,
Where I find styles most neccessary ( in Characters) is switches or any complicated arangment o multiple shapes.
If I decide to change a colour in a lip or a hand ( hands with all those fingers ) then I have to go and change manually all the shapes in all the switch unless I use a style, where it conveniently changes the whole lot.
Also I really like how you get a live preview when you alter the colour in style ( like you should).

I agree a big overhaul.
For a start change the name to material , wo we can all use the word style for its proper purpose and stop confusing everyone.
Overhaul ' Materials' and Brushes.
Brushes work sort of ok, but the brush library is impossible to organise.
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby Greenlaw » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 am

chucky wrote:Hi Dennis,
Where I find styles most neccessary ( in Characters) is switches or any complicated arangment o multiple shapes.

Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right. Early this year I tried a setup with about 50 hand poses. The number of hands turned out to be impractical for our needs but having Styles for the hand poses was a good way to swap it out for different skin colors. I still do that with some characters, but with fewer hand poses now.

Well, good except for the ID thing I mentioned. We really need a simple way to change the ID when you need the Styles to really be different.
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Re: Advanced Styles Issue. TOO MANY STYLES?

Postby Greenlaw » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:42 am

Oh, and I recall you mentioning this before: We need a better way to display and manage the Styles. I agree, the current system gets unwieldy with multiple characters.

Same goes for Actions and Bones lists. Many of the rigs we create at my work can easily have a 100-150 Actions and Bones, so the lists get super long.
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