Smartbones, adjusting points bug?

[Telemacus]

Hi,

I'm not sure if this is a bug or I'm simply doing something wrong.
I've added a couple of lever controlled actions to a character, using smartbones, and all went well.
Then, when I tried to create a new one, I'm finding that when I create the action and proceed to modify the points, there's some weird behaviour going on: Say I'm moving an eye to a lower location. When I modify the pupil, it kind of "snaps to grid" (I haven't switched it on or anything) and moves somewhere I certainly didn't want it to. If I try to adjust it, it happens again, it moves somewhere else. I can never get it where I want.
I've tried it several times and it always happens. I've also tried re-starting the program several times but the same thing happens.

[funksmaname]

just an idea, but double check none of your control bones have influence weight... post the file if you want someone to check it out (and a process to recreate the issue)

[Telemacus]

Thanks funksmaname.

I can't post it publicly, as it's part of a project, but there's no bone influence.
I've submitted a ticket.

I've just noticed that even if I try to adjust an item´s position using the x + y position, it moves somewhere else.
I did create 3 smartbone actions without any problems, but with the 4th, I had this weird issue.

The character was originally created with version 8 (or 8.5). I'm using verion 10.1.

[funksmaname]

check bone parenting...?

[Telemacus]

It's not a bone parenting issue.

Here's the reply from Smith Micro support team, Matt Ko:

"I've been testing your file and I'm on the fence on whether this is a bug with the software or whether it's some unusual setup you have. I've found that the problem is caused by your EyesLeftRight smartbone. If you delete that smartbone and then follow the steps you provided, the issue no longer occurs.

Now, I don't know what exactly you did in EyesLeftRight that could be causing this unusual interaction, so that's why I can't say one way or another whether this is a general software issue or a setup issue specific to your scene. Try this: with that project open, go to FILE > SAVE AS and save under a different name (that way, we can make changes to it without worrying about you losing all of your initial work). In the renamed project, delete that EyesLeftRight smartbone (don't forget to delete its corresponding Action). Do not re-create EyesLeftRight just yet. Instead, create the newer smartbone that you wanted to create but could not because of the issue caused by EyesLeftRight. If all goes well here, use FILE > SAVE AS again to save under yet another name. Then re-create EyesLeftRight and see if the issue persists. Make sure to document each and every step of the process here (so that I can try reproducing it on my end) in case the problem crops up again. But if the problem does not crop up anymore, then my guess is that by a fluke you might have done something strange and unusual the first time around and that you did not repeat it this time around."

But I tested his suggestion, then replied to his post:

"The problem is not the EyesLeftRight smartbone.
I deleted that, then I can create another smartbone without problems, as you said, BUT if I create some more smartbones after that, whether it's the eyes, the chin, or whatever, the same thing happens again. "

[synthsin75]

See if this thread is similar to your problem: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26882

[Telemacus]

Thanks synthsin75.

Yes, the issue seems pretty much the same.
However, your suggested solution is the same Matt gave. The problem with that is, it only works as long as you don't add any more actions! If you do, the problem shows up again.
It's like if things get messed up the moment I add "too many" (more than 4) actions to a character if they're all close to each other.

[synthsin75]

No need to delete any smart bone, and this is not a bug. AS intentionally makes any active smart bone active while creating other smart bone actions. This is necessary for users who need to have two or more SBs work on the same points, otherwise you'd have to guess at how more than one SB interacts.

The easiest way to work around this would be to temporarily rename the other SB action(s) that work on the same points while you create the new one. As long as you name it something other than a bone name, it will no longer interact, and you can rename it back afterward. I would probably just add an underscore or something to the end of each name to temporarily disable them.

[Telemacus]

Thanks for your reply Symthsin.

That's a neat workaround and it works fine!

From my experience with this issue, when I create a new character in AS10, this issue doesn't happen. But with characters made for previous versions, I had to switch from region binding to flexible binding and also allow nested layer control, and that might have something to do with all this.

I don't know. But your workaround does indeed work!

Thanks!

[synthsin75]

I'm surprised this doesn't happen on new characters created in v10 as well. Part of the problem with older version files may be that you could have used the manipulate bone tool, which keys every bone in an IK chain, to create smart bone actions. v10 (and I think 9.5) only lets you use the transform bone tool to avoid this.

I'm glad the workaround works for you. Thanks for posting the problem, as I hadn't though of that workaround before, and it is a better solution than deleting the keyframes, which is what I suggested in that other thread.

[strider2000]

This is interesting. I'm not sure I'm following the discussion exactly, but it relates to issues I've seen when trying to control points with multiple smart bones. I had the same snapping, but my issue was that I had bound a group layer to a head tilt skeleton bone. However, the interesting thing to me here is the point by synthsin75

AS intentionally makes any active smart bone active while creating other smart bone actions.

That the part I'm not sure I fully follow, especially in light of a note selgin added in
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27187&p=153720&hil ... ne#p153720

- Don't touch the smart bone again. Remember, to make smart action work, it's necessary to have only one rotation key for that bone.

I'm wondering if that's what was causing problems for Telemacus. Thanks for the workaround synthsin75. I'll need to play around with these ideas some to see if I can understand them better.

[synthsin75]

That just means that if a smart bone has a keyframe on its default resting position (frame zero rotation), it will be active when making other smart bone actions. This often occurs because many of us make two-way smart bones, where instead of using separate bones for each direction we use one bone with the frame zero rotation in the middle of the smart bone action.