Hi, all. Long time no log in.
Hope this is the right forum for this--if not, feel free to move.
You may remember me if you saw my "Ninjews" (animated Jewish Ninjas) cartoons on here a while back.
One of the reasons I have only done a few is the incredible time commitment that goes into creation of models and the fact that I don't particularly enjoy it (or the animation--really I'm a "filmmaker" who stupidly decided to do some projects as animations).
Then I had this idea. . .what if, with my guidance, I could get these professionals who love this stuff do build the characters and sets for me? I can send you stuff I've already done so you can see how they're built and what range of motion, etc. they need to be capable of.
Long story short, how much (is there any sort of standard rate) do people charge for building a single character. Let's say needed to have a front view and a side view. Do more complex characters incur higher rates?
What about a rate for backgrounds? Does it depend on how interactive they are (chair a character can sit in, door that opens, etc.)
Props/objects they interact with?
Curious to see if it's feasible for me to try this, being that there's likely no ROI for me except exposure. Thanks.
character model and background creation - rate question
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Thing is that you normally don't just calculate by number of pieces. Building a character can take anything from 4 hrs to 2 weeks, and because AS is 2D, it might be that it still doesn't work in a certain scene and needs additional treatment then. Painting a BG may take 15 minutes or 1 week. It all depends on the style of visuals and animation.
It's much better if you can already show some designs and have an outline of what's going to happen. Then you need to quantify stuff, example:
(3 minute short film)
- 4 human characters, each in 5 views fully rigged, with 8 mouths
- 15 BGs, of this 3 are really detaild, and 5 are blurred (colour cards)
- Moveable props: 2 chairs, 1 table, 1 car (doors!) in 3 views, beer cans
Such a list together with the designs could help me to calculate. A package like this will most likely take a month's time to create - don't forget feedback loops and your change requests! And for a month's work (about 160 hrs) I'll charge about 2500.- EUR.
If you now think of "OK, I'll cut down everything, just 1 BG and 1 character which I can colour differently", no, that's the wrong way.
First, you won't get a good film in the end.
Second, if the design is good and the communication between you and the artists works, then it's not a big deal to do 15 BGs instead of 10. (In the olden days we spread 20 sheets on the tables and worked through all 20 with the same colour and brush in one go, then changed to the next colour ... a bit like those chinese artists who copy western art in an assembly line style.)
Third, you can spend more time with creation and rigging the longer the result will be: a feature, or a series with x episodes. For a one-shot project, often rigging takes too much time, or you may skip features and have an incomplete rig which will just do the job.
Fourth, don't forget that you don't get any points for doing a film in just one software. Instead trust your animators about the best workflow. Sometimes it's not worth to do a complicated rig for that one turnaround scene - which can be done in a bitmap program much faster and better.
It's much better if you can already show some designs and have an outline of what's going to happen. Then you need to quantify stuff, example:
(3 minute short film)
- 4 human characters, each in 5 views fully rigged, with 8 mouths
- 15 BGs, of this 3 are really detaild, and 5 are blurred (colour cards)
- Moveable props: 2 chairs, 1 table, 1 car (doors!) in 3 views, beer cans
Such a list together with the designs could help me to calculate. A package like this will most likely take a month's time to create - don't forget feedback loops and your change requests! And for a month's work (about 160 hrs) I'll charge about 2500.- EUR.
If you now think of "OK, I'll cut down everything, just 1 BG and 1 character which I can colour differently", no, that's the wrong way.
First, you won't get a good film in the end.
Second, if the design is good and the communication between you and the artists works, then it's not a big deal to do 15 BGs instead of 10. (In the olden days we spread 20 sheets on the tables and worked through all 20 with the same colour and brush in one go, then changed to the next colour ... a bit like those chinese artists who copy western art in an assembly line style.)
Third, you can spend more time with creation and rigging the longer the result will be: a feature, or a series with x episodes. For a one-shot project, often rigging takes too much time, or you may skip features and have an incomplete rig which will just do the job.
Fourth, don't forget that you don't get any points for doing a film in just one software. Instead trust your animators about the best workflow. Sometimes it's not worth to do a complicated rig for that one turnaround scene - which can be done in a bitmap program much faster and better.
Ok, so that clarifies a few things. Sounds like you personally go by hour instead of character/BG etc. Fair enough.
For this particular series I have a sort-of established visual "style", from which I would try not to deviate too far (e.g. backgrounds are always perfectly perpendicular to cam's axis, like Aqua Teen style, characters are always viewed from a side/three quarter or frontal. I guess if for turns, you had to create 5 views (from your example), that makes sense, otherwise it's overkill for this project.
If I really go into this I'd be happy to send whoever a sample of a character file for reference.
That was another thing I was concerned about. . .the "tweaking" (feedback loop, you called it)-- the back and forth where we get your interpretation synched up with my vision. I realize that, precisionist and control freak that I am, that could take a while.
For this particular series I have a sort-of established visual "style", from which I would try not to deviate too far (e.g. backgrounds are always perfectly perpendicular to cam's axis, like Aqua Teen style, characters are always viewed from a side/three quarter or frontal. I guess if for turns, you had to create 5 views (from your example), that makes sense, otherwise it's overkill for this project.
If I really go into this I'd be happy to send whoever a sample of a character file for reference.
That was another thing I was concerned about. . .the "tweaking" (feedback loop, you called it)-- the back and forth where we get your interpretation synched up with my vision. I realize that, precisionist and control freak that I am, that could take a while.
If I write an offer for a project, I always take care to make clear how much work a client can expect from me: if possible, number of BG files with a defined format, and so on. I also include a line like "this includes 1 feedback loop - further changes after that (after a given date) will be charged by the hour." Also I put in a lot of dates - when to expect which part of work from me, but also when to get feedback from the client - if he fails, he pays more. I also write lists of which material is required, what designs and other stuff the client needs to send to me in time.
I've been working on both ends, so I know how hard it can be to prepare work for others, or just write down detailed enough instructions. But this is the most important part.
I've been working on both ends, so I know how hard it can be to prepare work for others, or just write down detailed enough instructions. But this is the most important part.
Thanks. I will keep all this in mind. I'd still like some other folks to chime in with their thoughts.
Wait, duh. . .I guess if I was more specific with what I wanted, I could keep costs down by keeping your workload down, right?
E.g. don't need to see the room from this angle, only this angle, same with character, this character will never walk, only sit, so doesn't need rigging to walk, etc.
Maybe at that point it's splitting hairs/pennies/Euros, though?
Wait, duh. . .I guess if I was more specific with what I wanted, I could keep costs down by keeping your workload down, right?
E.g. don't need to see the room from this angle, only this angle, same with character, this character will never walk, only sit, so doesn't need rigging to walk, etc.
Maybe at that point it's splitting hairs/pennies/Euros, though?
No, it's not. But usually this takes place within a team in a studio, where director, storyboard artist, and layout artist work closely together. In my time at a studio, sometimes it was my job to change the storyboard of another artist so it didn't demand as many backgrounds and so on.
It gets more complicated if this is happening "between" the client (you, as the director) and a background artist or character designer, because of course it's your interest to keep costs down, which in the end results in cutting too many corners, and a mediocre film. Best would be if you team up with a good storyboard artist and change the whole script, if necessary.
It gets more complicated if this is happening "between" the client (you, as the director) and a background artist or character designer, because of course it's your interest to keep costs down, which in the end results in cutting too many corners, and a mediocre film. Best would be if you team up with a good storyboard artist and change the whole script, if necessary.