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nobudget
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Post by nobudget » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:34 am

"yours approached a "pro" look"
Well, I don't have any formal education in this field but I am in video production and computer graphics professionally so you can decide where I belong...

"cartoon voices a little more different from your own"
It was also a test to see if I could create different voices, I'll have to work on that I guess...

"music starting and stopping exactly when you cut"
Only on the gay guy if you listen carefully, that was intentional to emphasize his reactions and giving the feeling he lives in his own overly dramatic make-believe world (now that's deep for a little animation right?).

"Is it wrong to be attracted to the Asian girl?"
Not at all, that's why I created her, I'm sad and lonely at the moment! Usually I'm just sad...

Thanks for all reactions,

Reindert.
www.nobudgetvideo.com
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AcouSvnt
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Post by AcouSvnt » Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:32 pm

Right, I got what was going on with the gay guy's personal universe. I can't think exactly how I would have done it differently, to still make that point while looking more continuous overall. Maybe every time his music ends, I'd give it a fast slow-down effect like someone's stopping a record with their hand.
-Keith
nobudget
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Post by nobudget » Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:49 pm

"stopping a record with their hand"

Very interesting comment, I wanted to use a needle pulled of a record scratch sound but the ones I found didn't sound right so I decided not to use it. And besides, who knows what an old vinyl record is these days...

"I got what was going on with the gay guy's personal universe"
Fill in your own smart-ass remark here :wink:

By the way, is nobody offended about stereotypes here? Spandex wearing flaming homosexuals and me-so-horny asian women? I meant it tongue-in-cheek but I expected (hoped for) at least one person being offended. And the ridiculous mafia/bronx hitman mini-me accent, but that one was so inaccurate you probably didn't notice that one...

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Hiddicop
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Post by Hiddicop » Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:54 pm

By the way, is nobody offended about stereotypes here? Spandex wearing flaming homosexuals and me-so-horny asian women? I meant it tongue-in-cheek but I expected (hoped for) at least one person being offended. And the ridiculous mafia/bronx hitman mini-me accent, but that one was so inaccurate you probably didn't notice that one...
I got a bit irritated, but it's so usual nowadays that I didn't bother complaining about it.
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AcouSvnt
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Post by AcouSvnt » Sat Dec 11, 2004 7:09 pm

First off, nobody is offended by gay stereotypes, especially not gays. At least none of the gays I know.

If you really wanted people to be offended, you need a black character modeled after a 1930s cartoon - missing teeth, watermelon, etc.. (I find those to be intriguing in a historical sense, and a lot less malevolent than people accuse them of being -- though I probably have no right to say that because I'm white -- but that's a rant for another time, another forum.)

I think it's terrible and stupid that people expect cartoons to be "socially responsible". Like saying villains shouldn't have foreign accents or whatever. That's just silly.
-Keith
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Post by nobudget » Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:08 am

I agree, it's all in the eye of the beholder. I didn't find those sterotypical characters offensive when I was a kid, I never made the "racist" connection and I'm not offended now (the Dutch version of Santa Claus has people in blackface as assistants. Once they were supposed to resemble the african image white people had centuries ago, now they are merely holiday symbols and detached from racial symbolism). I've made a couple of movies with Nigerians, making stereotypical jokes about cultures and race was a lot of fun. That's why I had to chuckle about this quote from the professional jury:

"It lost some point on trying to be offensive (especially the Asian character, the stereotype just came off as unfunny more than anything else)."

One line was a reference to the movie "Full Metal Jacket" and I even SAY that accent is horrible in the film (since I did the voice that means I criticise my voice, not the character in question). And of course the judges didn't know my last two girlfriends are asian (Thai to be precise, and hopefully the next one too :wink: ), one of my clients is Chinese and I know quite a few asian people, and also other nationalities by the way. If we can't laugh at stuff like that where can we laugh about? If you make fun of the sterotypes you diffuse the power those statements have. I never try to offend, that is very easy to do. And what is acceptable for one is not acceptable for the other. The problem with a competition like this is audience. What is the demographic? Kids, adults, liberal or conservative? You can never please everyone so I please myself and hope others will join me!

Ok, I'm getting off my soapbox now, I have to prepare for my acceptance speech :D

Reindert.
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kdiddy13
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Post by kdiddy13 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:13 am

Hey,

Just to be clear. I was relaying the judges opinions, not necessarily mine. I think the point the had was that quote is used so often that it just felt overused, like something funnier could have been said. Other than that, they thought it had some good stuff going for it.

As for my opinion (as if anyone is really interested in what I have to say) I have to disagree with one of your key arguments for enabling you to use stereotypes. I don't think knowing someone who is Asian necessarily gives you the right to use what may be construed as an insensitive stereotype. I know quite a few black people that I consider friends but I don't feel that I have the right to go around making animations making fun of the "Mammy" stereotype or calling people "nigger."

Perhaps there are more productive ways to distill the power of the negative stereotype. What if you made fun of the people making the stereotypes or made fun of the actual stereotype (what if she wasn't horny) rather than using it in its original form, it could possibly succeed in diffusing the stereotypes better than referencing and perpetuating the stereotype itself. Just brainstorming here.

Are stereotypes necessarily bad? No, they enable us, especially as animators, to create characters that don't need much explanation. They get the point across about who the perceived person is supposed to be, without having to go into a huge backstory. But when you use them you have to be prepared for the possiblity that someone may not like them.

In any event, I really enjoyed the charicature of you and how you used photos of your hands to give the illusion of animation. It was a suprisingly simple yet effective technique. And I agree, you can never please everyone, so you're best off creating animations that you enjoy and hope that others enjoy as well.

Kdiddy
Last edited by kdiddy13 on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CHIO
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Post by CHIO » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:49 am

Hi !

I would like to give my congratulations for the winners: Kilerant, obudget and Banterfield. I enjoyed so much working to send my entry. This was my third short, and I apreciate sincerely the repplies and his critics. There is a saying: "The most important is compete...not win" :wink: But It´s very nice win... :D, and so I wil try make my next job better than the last, even when I´m a hobbiest and I haven´t time to fun with animations.

I hope see you in the second moho´s contest. I will be there. Cheers.

Carlos F. Bergoglio
CHIO ANIMATION
http://www.freepgs.com/chio
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AcouSvnt
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Post by AcouSvnt » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:58 am

The reason stereotypes exist is because humans need to classify and categorize things. It stems from an innocent survival skill, but warps into something ugly and hateful when we don't question and review our own natural biases.

Really bad, hateful stereotyping is something that needs to be fostered and built upon over the course of many generations, I think. It doesn't just come from one day when a white child sees a black child for the first time. It has to be taught to him by his parents and other people, repeatedly.

But there's no escaping these facts: some incredible proportion (like 80 to 90 percent) of all information taken in by the human brain is visual. And the difference between light and dark is the most dramatic thing that can be perceived visually. That is, I think, why the white-black tension is among the hardest to eradicate.

I luckily had parents that never spoke negatively about people of any particular class, race or religion (though they did sometimes let me know they didn't think certain specific people were good influences). My aunt and uncle, on the other hand, are sort of set in their ways, and collect a lot of weird old junk as "Americana", some of which portray the Mammy-type caricatures. Being pretty ignorant of race issues as a kid, they didn't mean anything to me. They were just funny looking artifacts.

I'm kind of under the impression that someone like Robert Crumb was never racist or hateful, and when he did those type of caricatures they were so over-the-top that they were almost caricatures of caricatures. (I think I've used up my allowance for that word now.)

This is not a rant, by the way. This is a ramble. If it were more focused and had a point, it would be a rant.
-Keith
nobudget
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Post by nobudget » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:08 am

WARNING: Going into rambling mode:

"I don't think knowing someone who is Asian necessarily gives you the right to use what may be construed as an insensitive stereotype"

That's the problem I guess. Different perspectives about "insensitive". A good animation, film etc. should try to subtly give the viewer some info about the creator. It can be difficult to judge the intent without knowing who created the work. I tend to take it a bit further than most. I hate people who say "I'm not ..., some of my best friends are... so that wasn't my defense, just wanted to mention it. I gave myself the right to use any stereotype, I don't certain friends to do that.

The knowledge about the creator can be negative sometimes though, I can't watch any movie directed by Victor de Salva (Jeepers Creepers) because I know he has been in jail for pedophilea (with one of his child actors in "Clownhouse"). It just makes me start reading subtext in every frame of his movies.

I agreed with a lot Keith had to say in his post but I have a different opinion on "I probably have no right to say that because I'm white" about the sterotyped black character. I believe a white person has the same rights to speak about that just like someone who is black, yellow or whatever. I try to judge people and their actions in context. Sometimes cultural difference is valid context, or color of skin, but sometimes it is not. I have more in common with a black man in Holland than some white man in the United States. KKK members and extreme Black Panther members have more in common with each other than with any tolerant person, ain't that ironic? I personally believe casting Oscar wannabees to play mentally challenged people instead of real mentally challenged actors is wrong, I don't have to be mentally challenged to have an opinion on that. Ok, I might be by some definitions, but that's not the point.

Anyway, I haven't made a lot of effort to explain the mindset behind my animation, the two minute timeframe hardly allowed that and my presence on this forum will likely have demonstrated my skewed method of reasoning already (replace with shrewd if you like :D ). And to be honest I don't care that much about offending people, I'm willing to allow others to make statements and have an opinion I don't agree with in order to make my own. That is freedom in my opinion, something some world leaders I will not mention should learn sometime...

Kdiddy, I didn't take it personal, and I like some serious discussion once in a while. Only talking about layer shadows and particle animation gets boring after a while... Glad to see you liked the cut-out cartoon character though!

Reindert.
www.nobudgetvideo.com
nobudget
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Post by nobudget » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:13 am

One little quote from a Dutch comedian I wanted to share with you, I think it holds up in translation:

"It doesn't matter which color of skin you are, inside we are all white!"
Theo Maassen

Says it all I think...

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kdiddy13
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Post by kdiddy13 » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:44 am

I agree, nobudget. It's refreshing to carry on a conversation about a difficult, easily misunderstood, and easy to offend subject, and still manage to do so without insulting each other. Rather, explaining our ideas and discussing where we're coming from. Yay for an intelligent discussion about real issues. Your film seems to have had one of its intended results after all. I stand corrected!

It's funny, even while being on different sides of the issue, I think we can all agree on one thing, that ignorance and hatred based on race, religion, or sexuality (did I forget any) is a very bad thing. It sounds obvious to say it, but in all of our posts we all agreed on that one point.

Peace and love to ya all.

Kdiddy
Last edited by kdiddy13 on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CHIO
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Post by CHIO » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:59 am

Hi:

In middle of this opinion´s battle, l like return to a "mind" in last repplies: I can´t understand the real reason about this contest had only 10 entries and only 35 votes. Today there is 400 members in this forum. The favorite audience entry was saw for about 470 people. I ask me: are all pasive members...? :roll: Are all professional without time to talk or send one vote ...? :shock: or maybe tryng the soft in demo version, 8) or learning...I don´t know. :D or...or...or...I would like to read your opinion...

Regards,

Carlos F. Bergoglio
CHIO ANIMATION
http://www.freepgs.com/chio
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AcouSvnt
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Post by AcouSvnt » Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:04 am

I put so much energy into maintaining my presence on this forum that I barely have time for the nonsense of making cartoons (said in the tone of John Cleese saying "Judean People's Front ... *raspberry*").

That's my excuse.
-Keith
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Post by nobudget » Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:10 pm

Carlos,

You are absolutely right. I mentioned this already before I steered this discussion far off topic. I'm glad to have won the audience vote but dissapointed to see the low number of votes. I didn't vote because I had an entry but even if the others thought the same way that's only 10 votes less. I also asked people on a couple of forums and on my website to watch mine and other entries, I can understand they didn't register to vote, but that would be dozens at most. There must have been hundreds of registered viewers who just didn't vote. Maybe they didn't like any of the entries or perhaps they do not like the idea of competition, both are valid reasons. I'd like to hear from people who didn't vote and their motivation.

And I guess the next competition we will see more entries. Some might have been afraid they would have gotten insulting responses or were afraid the quality level was too high to compete. It is now proven the forum members are all very supportive so good luck next time!

Maybe a small suggestion; how about a very open contest with few limitations. Less than 5 minutes, topic is free. This way people could send in animations they have already finished or only have to change a bit.

Reindert.
www.nobudgetvideo.com
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