Best Free Vector Graphics Software to Work with Moho?

[heyvern]

I will not use a script to do simple stuff like adding points which should be possible to do with the tip of a pen, since this is standard behaviour of all vector programs I know....

You won't use a... "script" because it does something... simple?

Uh... hmm.... er...

I hate to say this but... nearly ALL of the tools in Moho are "scripts".

If you don't want to use a "script" to do "simple things".. uh... er... hmm.

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I am in 100% agreement with every one here complaining about the tools. All of the complaints are valid. They are all true.

How you respond to those limitations is where I differ.

My suggestions are offered to help in using Moho. They are NOT supposed to be... answers to all of your problems... they are not "perfect" workarounds... they are little things I have learned that are intended to ease the pain. I don't "count the clicks". I look at my results. The number of "clicks" is meaningless.

Please... come on. You're saying that using another program... exporting the files... importing into Moho... is faster than using a menu command? Clicking a few "extra" clicks?

Using the split curve... "script" to add points is not the perfect solution... but it works.

Because everyone else has to go find another program to draw with by the time you get something else installed and learn it... I have moved on to the next hurdle.

-vern

[slowtiger]

Maybe I should have put it more clearly: An essential function like adding points to an existing shape belongs into the main tools, not into some script section which should be reserved for more complex and seldom-used operations.

What's wrong with wanting to have an application which is really good? - instead of one which, you know, it works, somehow, but sometimes you really have to search and think around several corners before it works as expected ... especially with the prospect of selling it for more than double its recent price.

[j0llyr0ger]

In response to the original question asking for a good FREE vector graphics program I have a one word reply:

InkScape

http://www.inkscape.org/

Just like Moho, the user interface takes a little getting used to, but once you master it you will be amazed at the power of this FREE open source program.

Moho is the only program I have even contemplated spending money on in years. Next time you need a program to do 'X' go to a search engine and type in "free open source X program" and see what you get.

You may have to spend some time wading through junk, but more often than not you will find something useful- maybe something great.

[xmp333]

Please... come on. You're saying that using another program... exporting the files... importing into Moho... is faster than using a menu command? Clicking a few "extra" clicks?

Using the split curve... "script" to add points is not the perfect solution... but it works.

Because everyone else has to go find another program to draw with by the time you get something else installed and learn it... I have moved on to the next hurdle.

-vern

It isn't enough that a person can accomplish something with a given interface; the interface must be simple and unobtrusive enough that it accomodates the user's method of working, not the other way around. Seemingly minor issues add up and result to a lot of lost productivity, and a loss of "flow" which is especially important in creative endeavors like animation.

As far as power goes, Moho is near the top of the heap. It has a lot of features, and an excellent tutorial that got me started quickly. Unfortunately, the interface counter-acts this power. I would LOVE to see Moho's interface over-hauled to something more intuitive. If that's done, this program will be nothing short of incredible -- especially at the price.

[heyvern]

A friend just purchased Moho very recently.

I was just talking to him tonight... showing him all the tricks I know... telling him what to expect and avoid. I gave him some of my files to pick apart and learn from. I told him what to expect when importing AI files. I discussed issues with the drawing tools.

I plan to zip up all of the best user created scripts and tools (in my humble opinon) that I use myself and send them to him so he can work as easily as I do.

I was using Moho on his computer and realized that all of my favorite "custom" drawing and editing tools weren't there... quite a big difference I must say. The difference between night and day to be honest.

I don't know how many of you use these custom tools... but they make a world of difference to me. I can make this zip file available to everyone.

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I have used Adobe Illustrator for nearly 15 years. Moho's tools are not obtrusive or complicated. Compared to anything out there they stand up very well. They aren't perfect. Nothing is perfect.

As a very long time user of AI... I have to say learning Moho was a breeze. The transition was a bit rough but nevertheless... considering how much time I had spent previously with AI... I think it went pretty good.

I am an old timer with computer anything. Most of the "version 10's" we have today were barely "2's" when I started. Learning to deal with questionable programming decisions back then was frustrating.

In the beginning... there weren't any "user forums"... crap... there was barely an "internet" (aol WAS the internet)... there were no experts anywhere to ask how to do something. You "winged it" everyday. You had to teach yourself or never learn it.

If I come across too strong... I apologize... it is my nature... it comes from those experiences learning these tools. I'm an old fogey who walked to school uphill both ways... without texting on my cell phone.

I still feel that Moho's tools are very conducive to the creative side of my brain... I have been creating on computers for a pretty long time... I have years of experience with countless applications... and this sucker has it nailed as far as I am concerned.

If you don't care to give it another shot... spend more than "a few weeks" learning it... that is your choice... and in my small tiny opinion... your loss.

I will post my collection of "favorite user created tools" in the tips and techniques area in the next few days for anyone who would like to try it out.

-vern

[ulrik]

A friend just purchased Moho very recently.

I plan to zip up all of the best user created scripts and tools (in my humble opinon) that I use myself and send them to him so he can work as easily as I do.

I will post my collection of "favorite user created tools" in the tips and techniques area in the next few days for anyone who would like to try it out.

-vern

Yes please do post them, I'm very interested in your way of work and I think I've got a lot to learn from the files.

[xmp333]

In response to the original question asking for a good FREE vector graphics program I have a one word reply:

InkScape

http://www.inkscape.org/

[...]

Inkscape is what I downloaded, and it looks awesome, but unfortunately I can't import its output into Moho. I tried EPS and nothing came through.

[slowtiger]

Vern,
I'm working with Macs since 1993, starting with Photoshop and FreeHand - never really learned Illustrator, so it's like a bit of Oxford versus Cambridge here ... and there's no apologies needed. *g*

Over the years I had to work with a bunch of software, good one, bad one, and the kind which lets you enter new levels of swearing and frustration every day. AfterEffects, Morph, ElasticReality, Fontographer, Bryce; QuarkXpress, Painter, Premiere, Director, Flash ... they all had their great moments, and they all had their flaws. I even had the questionable pleasure to learn the old Quantel Paintbox way to do things. And I worked my way through the first versions of Animo, even been in Cambridge as one of the first group of users to test it.

I think I have a quite good overview at tools and interfaces, and it's not just my personal taste (which of course exists) which lets me decide wether one way is better or more intuitive or faster than another, because I have trained more than hundred colleagues over the years and could observe them while using those tools.

Fortunately I'm not the developer who has to make things work through his special magic. I'm just the one who safely sits back and criticises that a better solution is possible because it already works elsewhere.

[xmp333]

I have used Adobe Illustrator for nearly 15 years. Moho's tools are not obtrusive or complicated. Compared to anything out there they stand up very well. They aren't perfect. Nothing is perfect.

[...]

I am an old timer with computer anything. Most of the "version 10's" we have today were barely "2's" when I started. Learning to deal with questionable programming decisions back then was frustrating.

In the beginning... there weren't any "user forums"... crap... there was barely an "internet" (aol WAS the internet)... there were no experts anywhere to ask how to do something. You "winged it" everyday. You had to teach yourself or never learn it.

If I come across too strong... I apologize... it is my nature... it comes from those experiences learning these tools. I'm an old fogey who walked to school uphill both ways... without texting on my cell phone.

[...]

If you don't care to give it another shot... spend more than "a few weeks" learning it... that is your choice... and in my small tiny opinion... your loss.

I will post my collection of "favorite user created tools" in the tips and techniques area in the next few days for anyone who would like to try it out.

-vern

Hi Vern,


Just because nothing is perfect doesn't mean we should ignore things that can be improved.

I'm an "old fogey" as far as computers go as well. I used computers before AOL, back when Bulletin Boards were all we had. I remember when software was either pirated or shareware... I don't even recall "freeware" being a word, and the concept of shareware was astounding. DOS was how you did things, and the notion of a GUI was years away for the masses.

However, I've moved on with the world. Now, not only do we expect GUIs, but we expect to be in control of the work-flow. Gone are the days where we did things the way the computer expected (exception: "Wizards"). Computing is for the masses, and we expect software to do our bidding the way we want it. Yes, I'll still use "batch" mode software like PovRay, but at least I know in advance this is the case. Certain expectations ride along with GUI software.

BTW, I'm a computer programmer, so I'm far from a newbie. Maybe I need to play around with Moho's scripting...

[heyvern]

Sorry guys.

I am a stubborn, arrogant, know it all, must be right all the time, obsessive compulsive, YOU MUST AGREE WITH ME or I feel like I failed, kind of guy. I am aware of this as one of my... few.... personality failings.


I just feel bad when I hear all of these people trying to use other drawing tools with Moho and the problems associated with that... when I can draw anything I want faster and more easily with Moho than Illustrator.

Don't hate me! Just trying to help out.

I still find the editing tools in Moho (well.. the new ones I use created by others) really easy and quick.

I am putting together my zip file collection. I want to add some kind of text file explaining my... uh... unusual uses and reasons for the combinations.

I actually use two different selection tools from 7feet and Fazek... that technically do the same thing... but one has the ability to change the center point for scaling groups of points and can scale rotate etc... all from one tool.

Fazek's tool allows almost identical selection and translation of points that I like in AI. Almost nearly identical. You can even select all the points of a mesh by clicking anywhere on the outline.

I am too lazy at the moment to figure out how to combine the functionality of both tools into one.

His shape creation tool is much better than the default. It allows you to easily click to create shapes based on how the shape is constructed... very much different and better than the default Moho tool.

Keep in mind Fazek's tools have only existed for a short while.... like... less than 6 months? Not sure... not that long. They are great. I highly reccomend ANY script from Fazek. He rocks!

He just created a very simplistic new one for a "psuedo" flip... it flips the shape... without... actually flipping the shape! Great for creating "opposite sides" of a head turn in a switch layer. I have already used it... but it needs some extra... features to be ready for new users.

All of these things have made my use of Moho... very fluid and fast. When using the "old" tools in Moho the other night on someone elses computer... I was... cursing and swearing...

"I have to send you the tools I use!" I told him. They are much better.

I also keep the original Moho selection tool because it creates key frames with "one click" on a group of points when I need to do that.

Maybe my... assumption that these custom tools were easily available was my biggest error.

When I post my collection... I would be very greatfull if any of you could at least give them a try for a couple of days at least... see if I am just nuts... or maybe they do make a difference.

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While were on the topic of "old software"... do any of you rember a really really old product from Letraset (I think) that was suppose to be a competitor to Photoshop?

This was a loooong time ago. I have been wracking my brain trying to remember what it was called. I used it for about... a week... it stank awful.

-vern

[jahnocli]

I still find the editing tools in Moho (well.. the new ones I use created by others) really easy and quick.

I don't.

[Patmals]

try this excellent free but still in development open source software


http://www.inkscape.org/

[imekon]

I've only just bought Anime Studio (was Moho) and wading my way through the tutorials. I initially found the editing tools strange - but then I'm used to Xara eXtreme with it's line drawing. AS made sense after a while, just not sure how to do certain things. For instance, move between layers after drawing an entire picture in one layer by mistake... I tried cut and paste but that seemed to split the outline and the shape, very strange! Since then I've not had the problem...

[DMerchen]

heyvern,

I sure wouldn't mind seeing those scripts and custom tools you were talking about. Any chance of a download? Will they still work with AS?

My 2 cents....which is basically worth 1 cent due to inflation. I feel if you use one program, you can use it very well. You become the expert almost. Example, these paintings I see from Photoshop, I have no idea how they get those results. But give me a program I know, and it may not be as good (not nearly so), but I can achieve better results. I have seen this happen to myself. It is the too many programs out there syndrome I get caught up in. This one can do it better...blah, blah, blah. I am terrible with this. Something can always do it better, faster, slicker. I am not saying the tools could not use some tweaking in Moho...er AS, I think heyvern has just adapted better than some of us. He is what I refer to as an expert, and I know he has a lot of experience and tricks he could share with us. Perhaps he could throw together an AS tip book? I certainly didn't think of the tips posted already. Thanks for the tips.

[myles]

Hi Imekon,

The Select Points tool in Anime Studio is a little like the Shape Editor Tool in Xara Xtreme.
However, unlike Xara Xtreme, in Anime Studio you have to watch out for which points you have selected. If you have a group of points selected in AS, only those points will be cut and pasted into the new layer (which may cut lines and fill shapes, losing attributes), unlike XX where the whole line/shape will be cut and pasted regardless of points selected.

DMerchen,

good points. I kind of like the Anime Studio drawing tools myself. Bezier control points always take too much tweaking time and feel a little too hands-off for my taste. However, as jahnocli points out, its an individual thing.

To find the scripts/custom tools, check out the Scripting section of this forum.

Here's a quick selection of some significant ones, in no particular order, to get you started (I've probably missed some important ones):
- scripts by 7feet/Brian (see also this one)
- scripts by macton
- scripts by Fazek
- scripts by heyvern
- scripts by rylleman/Rylander
- scripts by ThaNarie

Note that there is some overlap as some of these people extend each others scripts.

Regards, Myles.