switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

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fukuro
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switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by fukuro »

Am trying to create lip syncing using a switch layer. How do I manipulate a bone so that it holds for a sub-layer? (I know that "manipulate bones" is only for testing at frame 0.)

There is a mention in the manual of "rotate bone," but no mention of how to do that, or exactly what it means.
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by slowtiger »

I seriously recommend you train your tool usage. It's in the manual, or maybe you prefer a tutorial video.
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by Víctor Paredes »

fukuro wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:04 amThere is a mention in the manual of "rotate bone," but no mention of how to do that, or exactly what it means.
Sorry, the manual needs to be updated there. In the past, there were three tools to animate bones: "Rotate Bone", "Translate Bone" and "Scale Bone". Now, those three tools are merged into the "Transform Bone" tool.
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by slowtiger »

That's been introduced in ... v9? Haven't had a look into the manual at that part since ...
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by Víctor Paredes »

slowtiger wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:36 am That's been introduced in ... v9? Haven't had a look into the manual at that part since ...
I'm checking version 12 manual and it still says Rotate Bone tool. I'm sorry we missed to update that part up to that point.
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by Greenlaw »

fukuro wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:04 am Am trying to create lip syncing using a switch layer. How do I manipulate a bone so that it holds for a sub-layer? (I know that "manipulate bones" is only for testing at frame 0.)
Are you using a Smart Bone Dial (SBD) to control a Switch layer? To do this without running through all the switch drawings linearly, you'll want to set the SBD use the Step Interpolation. This will make the control jump non-linearly to the desired drawing and hold. The easiest way to this is to set the Default Interpolation mode to Copy Previous Key and set the keyframe at frame 0 to Step.

Additional tip: In your Smart Bone Action for the dial, set the keyframe at frame 1 to Linear and then set the keyframe at 0 to Step. This way, the animation in the action will use Linear keys but the animation in the Timeline will always be in Step mode.

By the way, Manipulate Bones can be used for animation in the Timeline; it's not just for 'testing' at frame 0. As a matter of fact, I use Manipulate Bones most of the time when animating a character. The trick is to use Manipulate Bones with the Alt modifier key when you wish to switch rotate a single bone independently of the IK chaine (i.e., FK mode.) Of course the Manipulate Bone tool doesn't do everything (for example, no repositioning unless it's the root bone, or bone scaling,) and that's when I switch to the Translate Bone tool. But for most character rigs, Manipulate Bone is faster and easier to use though since it's mainly designed to rotate bones within a rig. (To rotate an SBD, use the Alt modifier with Manipulate Bone.)

Hope this helps.
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by Greenlaw »

I should add that I don't typically use the above method very much these days except in special cases. I find most of the time it's easier and faster to use the Switch Selection window. (Use the modifier keys to select the Switch layer or, even better, use Layer Shortcuts to select the layer.)

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fukuro
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by fukuro »

slowtiger wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:14 am I seriously recommend you train your tool usage. It's in the manual, or maybe you prefer a tutorial video.
I'm (obviously) new to Moho and trying to figure it out. Am patiently spending many hours with manuals and tutorial videos. Any specific pointers are appreciated. Thank you.
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by fukuro »

Greenlaw wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:24 pm
fukuro wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:04 am Am trying to create lip syncing using a switch layer. How do I manipulate a bone so that it holds for a sub-layer? (I know that "manipulate bones" is only for testing at frame 0.)
Are you using a Smart Bone Dial (SBD) to control a Switch layer? To do this without running through all the switch drawings linearly, you'll want to set the SBD use the Step Interpolation. This will make the control jump non-linearly to the desired drawing and hold. The easiest way to this is to set the Default Interpolation mode to Copy Previous Key and set the keyframe at frame 0 to Step.

Additional tip: In your Smart Bone Action for the dial, set the keyframe at frame 1 to Linear and then set the keyframe at 0 to Step. This way, the animation in the action will use Linear keys but the animation in the Timeline will always be in Step mode.

By the way, Manipulate Bones can be used for animation in the Timeline; it's not just for 'testing' at frame 0. As a matter of fact, I use Manipulate Bones most of the time when animating a character. The trick is to use Manipulate Bones with the Alt modifier key when you wish to switch rotate a single bone independently of the IK chaine (i.e., FK mode.) Of course the Manipulate Bone tool doesn't do everything (for example, no repositioning unless it's the root bone, or bone scaling,) and that's when I switch to the Translate Bone tool. But for most character rigs, Manipulate Bone is faster and easier to use though since it's mainly designed to rotate bones within a rig. (To rotate an SBD, use the Alt modifier with Manipulate Bone.)

Hope this helps.
I tried Smart Bone Dial (SBD) but the manual is so unclear to me I can't figure out how to work it. (p. 430 user manual) The problem I'm having with Moho is poor documentation - too much useless stuff about previous versions and not enough simple step-by-step how to do something.
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by fukuro »

fukuro wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:04 am Am trying to create lip syncing using a switch layer. How do I manipulate a bone so that it holds for a sub-layer? (I know that "manipulate bones" is only for testing at frame 0.)

There is a mention in the manual of "rotate bone," but no mention of how to do that, or exactly what it means.
I'm still hoping for an answer I can understand. The lip sync tutorial character (5.1) has no bones. Is is possible to use bones within a switch layer for lip syncing? How? Any pointers appreciated.
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by Víctor Paredes »

fukuro wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:50 amI'm still hoping for an answer I can understand. The lip sync tutorial character (5.1) has no bones. Is is possible to use bones within a switch layer for lip syncing? How? Any pointers appreciated.
It's possible to mix many tools for many reasons, including lip sync. These techniques normally use a smart bone, but I think you should start from the basics first.

I think the easiest way to do it, is to simply put your mouth layers inside of a switch layer and animate it by adding keys to it.
The concept of a switch layer is simple. It can contain as many layers as you want, but only one of them will be shown at the time. So, to switch between different layers in time, you will have to add keyframes to the switch layer.
When you have a switch layer selected, there are many options to animate it:

- By right clicking over the layer and selecting the mouth you want from a list
- By using the Switch Selection window (that you can open the Window menu)
- By pressing Alt+C or Alt+D
- By holding Alt and Ctrl and right clicking over the shape
- By using the built-in auto lip sync (which reads the audio and tries to add the right mouths in the timeline)
- By using another software, such as Papagayo, and import the .dat file into your layer

This is very general and I hope it can help you, but please ask if you have a more specific question about it.
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fukuro
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Re: switch layer bone manipulation for lip syncing

Post by fukuro »

Víctor Paredes wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:42 am
fukuro wrote: Thu Apr 30, 2020 12:50 amI'm still hoping for an answer I can understand. The lip sync tutorial character (5.1) has no bones. Is is possible to use bones within a switch layer for lip syncing? How? Any pointers appreciated.
It's possible to mix many tools for many reasons, including lip sync. These techniques normally use a smart bone, but I think you should start from the basics first.

I think the easiest way to do it, is to simply put your mouth layers inside of a switch layer and animate it by adding keys to it.
The concept of a switch layer is simple. It can contain as many layers as you want, but only one of them will be shown at the time. So, to switch between different layers in time, you will have to add keyframes to the switch layer.
When you have a switch layer selected, there are many options to animate it:

- By right clicking over the layer and selecting the mouth you want from a list
- By using the Switch Selection window (that you can open the Window menu)
- By pressing Alt+C or Alt+D
- By holding Alt and Ctrl and right clicking over the shape
- By using the built-in auto lip sync (which reads the audio and tries to add the right mouths in the timeline)
- By using another software, such as Papagayo, and import the .dat file into your layer

This is very general and I hope it can help you, but please ask if you have a more specific question about it.
Thanks very much for the reply. What I'm trying to do is create various facial positions (at different sublayers) within a switch layer for lip syncing, (The character is an owl, which does not have a visible mouth per se.)

Attaching an audio file animates the switch layers accordingly is my understanding from the tutorial.

The problem I have is that I can't figure out how to use bones within individual switch sublayers to set the facial positions. The workaround for that is to manually do what the bones would do - which is not a big deal in this instance. It's just that bones initially seemed easier - turns out that was wrong.

My understanding is that 'smart' bones are default. I have a basic understanding of bone usage (which suffices for me so far for actions and basic timeline animation), but have not figured out smart bone dial.

(I'm new to Moho, so have much to learn. Moho is incredible software.)

To reiterate, is it possible to use bones to set positions in a sublayer within a switch layer? If so, how? If not, a feature suggestion for a future version.

Thanks again for the help.
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