How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

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How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby Matoran » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:26 pm

Hi.
I've created a video in Anime Studio Debut 8 (yes, I know, it's old), but I need to lengthen some parts of it. Everything has to stay exactly how it is, until somewhere in the middle, where there's a fight scene, and a few parts of it need to be slowed down. So I need more room in the middle of the video. The thing is, I don't know how to move all the layers and channels together (at the same time), starting at the fight scene, so I don't waste time moving each channel and layer, and most likely end up messing the whole thing up.

Does anyone know how to accomplish this in Debut 8?


Thank you.
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Re: Moving All Keyframes and Channels

Postby Greenlaw » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:27 pm

Hmm...unfortunately, multi-layer selection and editing is available only in the latest version, Moho 12.

Version 8 was actually before I was using ASP regularly but I think what you'll need to do is note the frame range you want to stretch from (i.e., 150 - 160) and the range you want to stretch to (i.e., 150 -185). Then, select the range in a for a given layer (typically the bones layer), hold down Alt and drag the last keyframe in the selection to where you want it to end--this will stretch the animation, in effect, slow it down. You'll need to repeat this for every layer with animation of course.

To make this just a little easier, make sure there is a shared first and last keyframe for every layer you wish to stretch. If the keyframes don't exist at those points, double-click on the timeline to create them. Or, if it doesn't cause problems, just use Ctrl F to keyframe everything at those points. Now when you stretch the frame ranges for each layer, they'll all be stretched exactly the same way.

Another thing that may help is to temporarily consolidate your channels. This places all the keyframes for a layer in a single channel, simplifying selection and editing. In Moho 12, this option can be accessed from the timeline by right-clicking but I'm not sure where the option exists in 8...maybe in preferences?

I'm sure that's not as 'easy' as you want but I hope some of these tips help.
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby synthsin75 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:07 pm

You can also use Animation>Rescale keyframes.
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Re: Moving All Keyframes and Channels

Postby Matoran » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:15 pm

Greenlaw wrote:Hmm...unfortunately, multi-layer selection and editing is available only in the latest version, Moho 12.

Version 8 was actually before I was using ASP regularly but I think what you'll need to do is note the frame range you want to stretch from (i.e., 150 - 160) and the range you want to stretch to (i.e., 150 -185). Then, select the range in a for a given layer (typically the bones layer), hold down Alt and drag the last keyframe in the selection to where you want it to end--this will stretch the animation, in effect, slow it down. You'll need to repeat this for every layer with animation of course.

To make this just a little easier, make sure there is a shared first and last keyframe for every layer you wish to stretch. If the keyframes don't exist at those points, double-click on the timeline to create them. Or, if it doesn't cause problems, just use Ctrl F to keyframe everything at those points. Now when you stretch the frame ranges for each layer, they'll all be stretched exactly the same way.

Another thing that may help is to temporarily consolidate your channels. This places all the keyframes for a layer in a single channel, simplifying selection and editing. In Moho 12, this option can be accessed from the timeline by right-clicking but I'm not sure where the option exists in 8...maybe in preferences?

I'm sure that's not as 'easy' as you want but I hope some of these tips help.


Thank you very much for replying!
Will doing that first part (where you slow down the animation by stretching it) move all the key frames forward? If it does, that really helps me out! And consolidating the channels will probably make things quite a bit easier.

Thank you again!
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby Matoran » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:17 pm

synthsin75 wrote:You can also use Animation>Rescale keyframes.


Oh, that might speed up the process! Thank you very much!
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby Greenlaw » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:48 pm

synthsin75 wrote:You can also use Animation>Rescale keyframes.

Oh, geez, I totally forgot about that command.

This should be quicker because it allows for document wide scaling but you might still want to create those start and end keyframes in each layer, if they don't already exist. Otherwise the frame range in those layers might not stretch equally as expected.
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby SpaceBoy64 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:31 pm

I am in a similar situation. My client wants everything to happen in about half the time.

I used Scale All Keyframes entire document, but some things didn't scale correctly.

The scene has a particle layer, and the particles have movement, and they fade away after a time. I had been noticing that oddly my title animation didn't look the same as it it did in the original animation I took it from. I had used the Sequencer to move it down the timeline. My particles didn't look right. They popped on and off, instead of gradually appearing and fading out, as I had originally animated it.
I saved a scene with just the title animation in it, and moved it back to start at frame 0. Big difference! Evidently, not everything is moving with the Sequencer.

When I tried to speed it up with Scale All Keyframes, it totally messed up the timing on everything. The particles didn't start on time, the mask revealing the title didn't start on time, and it started before it was supposed to. Obviously, not everything is scaling. Each particle has it's own animation, so editing that would take a bunch of time.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby SpaceBoy64 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:33 pm

I came up with a solution to the particles not looking right if I shifted them. I still didn't figure out how to fix it, but I solved the problem by pre-rendering the particles, and then importing the AVI file and compositing it over the other part. I used Lagarith codec, with RGBA turned on, so the AVI file has an alpha channel. I saved it with the option "do not premultiply the alpha channel" turned on, so I don't pick up the background color in my sparkles.

I hope this helps someone else.
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby synthsin75 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:36 am

Personally, I don't use or recommend using the Sequencer until doing compositing or final edit tasks.
Similar to using layer transforms, where I refrain from using them until absolutely necessary.
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby SpaceBoy64 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:31 am

synthsin75 wrote:Personally, I don't use or recommend using the Sequencer until doing compositing or final edit tasks.
Similar to using layer transforms, where I refrain from using them until absolutely necessary.


I think the problem was that it still leaves frame 0 at 0. So, if I had something starting at 0 and going to 20, and I shift the sequence 40 frames, I now have something lasting from 0 to 60. At least I think so. Hard to tell.

Yeah, using it for compositing would be fine, but then, would you need it? Couldn't you just move clips?

Here's my particle layer. If I move it to start at a later time, my sparkle elements look different, whether I use the sequencer, or just move the keyframes.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KUnKg6HEkbbNDbTj6Ug1trM4m-hgGYw3

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby synthsin75 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:53 am

You probably at least need to keyframe frame one, if you're going to move everything. That way all the animation maintains its relative start.

Moho can also be used as a simple compositor/NLE.
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby hayasidist » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:12 am

SpaceBoy64 wrote:... My client wants everything to happen in about half the time. Any suggestions?


you have an option to leave the animation as is and change the speed in your compositor. from what I read later you may have "titles" (e.g. your sparkles file) that you want unchanged but that overlay action that you need speeded up?? If, as I think you've done, you then need to render the sparkles group separately. (Are you on AS9.2?? IIRC, Layer Comps came in later - but these make the job of separation so much easier)

With the (separated) renders you can adjust the frame rate in your video editor - e.g. you render at 30 fps but you want those 30 frames only to last 0.5 second -- tell the compositor that the input was created at 60 fps.

with some compositors you can also adjust the rate in portions of the clip e.g. to speed up a jump by (say) 130% leaving the run up and landing at the original rate.

similarly with the sequencer - e.g. you have a group with bird flying over - but you want that 2 seconds earlier -- render as a separate sequence and shift it in the compositor.

bottom line - IMO leave a lot of this stuff to the compositor
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby SpaceBoy64 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:48 pm

hayasidist wrote: from what I read later you may have "titles" (e.g. your sparkles file) that you want unchanged but that overlay action that you need speeded up?? If, as I think you've done, you then need to render the sparkles group separately. (Are you on AS9.2?? IIRC, Layer Comps came in later - but these make the job of separation so much easier)


Yes, I am using AS9.2. The sparkles reveal the title, so they have to be the same speed. As I said in a previous post, I did eventually render the particles separately and comped them in using AS. I'm not doing any other compositing.

However, that's just avoiding the problem. I would like to find out the real solution to the problem, which is particles starting at the beginning of the scene look different than the same particles starting later in the timeline. You can see what I mean here:

Here is the scene original speed, with the sparkles starting later in the timeline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C04lkduR998
Here is the scene sped up, with sparkles rendered starting at frame 0 and composited in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQEiUQUmN9c

Again, here's my particle layer. If I move it to start at a later time, my sparkle elements look different, whether I use the sequencer, or just move the keyframes.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KUnKg6HEkbbNDbTj6Ug1trM4m-hgGYw3

I would like to know why this is happening, so I can avoid it in the future. I started with one of the built in particle effects and modified them. Maybe not the best choice? From what I'm seeing, all actions should have a keyframe at frame 1, not just at 0? If I create a particle effect, I want to be able to use it at any time in my timeline and have it look the same whether it starts at frame 1 or frame 800.

What am I doing wrong?
Thanks,
-Don
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby hayasidist » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:39 am

I've only had a very quick look at this - stolen some time from family time (we have to meet the Easter Bunny with my 4 y.o.) - so sorry if this is either not right or not enough to point you in the right direction.

The particle group has a lifetime of 11 frames. There are animations in the layers that are outside that range - especially starburst3. The three starburst layers have all been shifted by the sequencer. In starburst (and maybe others?) there are keyframes in the negative area of its timeline (because it's been shifted) - I think that using animation / rescale keyframes won't move keys in the negative area. The cutdown file has a range of only 60 frames - but there is much animation beyond that.

hth -- sorry again for brevity - if you need more please say!
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Re: How to Move All Keyframes and Channels?

Postby Greenlaw » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:17 pm

Sorry, just getting back to this thread. I haven't looked at the file and I'm not sure I can add more to the above comments, but I just did a quick test. To change the start point of a particle sim, it's as described earlier: just move the particle group in Sequencer. Don't move anything inside the group, just the group. The start time is always relative to the position of the group in the timeline, so if you move it from frame 1 to frame 25, the position of the particles you saw at 1 will now be at 25.

As for slowing the simulation down while preserving the animation, that's different. Moho's particle system is a bit limited and doesn't have this kind of global time speed control. (That would be a good feature request.) The easiest thing would be to change the frame rate and pre-render it, then import it as an Image Sequence layer. (If you're slowing it down, increase the frame rate in Project settings and increase the number of particles.) To offset the animation, just drag the imported Image Sequence to the frame where you want it to start.

(Ugh...just remembered your on 9.2, and the Image Sequence layer is a fairly new feature in Moho. You can use AVI with PNG instead. This will give you uncompressed frames with Alpha. By the way, if you ever decide to upgrade, I just remembered that Image Sequence has some useful re-timing features like looping, play backwards, and changing the frame rate. (No non-linear re-timing though.))

FWIW, I like to use Moho's Particle system for basic stuff because it's inside the program and easy to use, but when I need more advanced sims and physics, I turn immediately to Trapcode Particular in After Effects. If you can afford it, I highly recommend it. It's what I typically use for particle effects at DreamWorks.

Alternatively, you might look into Black Magic Fusion. The basic version is free and it includes the same excellent particle system found in the Studio version. Back when I was an artist at Rhythm & Hues, I used it for fire, smoke, and even liquid effects in many TV commercials, video game cinematics, and feature films. When I freelanced for The Asylum, I used it for a lot of blood and water effects.

Oh, another option is to retime your Moho particle render using optical flow technology. Optical flow can credibly interpolate new frames by following the trajectory of pixels in a rendered image sequence. You'll need to first render from Moho and apply this effect in another program like AE or Fusion Studio. In AE, you can use the native TimeWarp in Pixel Motion mode, and in Fusion Studio you can use the Optical Flow node (unfortunately, not available in the free version.) There is also Re:VisionFX Twixtor, which is an excellent optical flow re-timing plugin available for many compositors and video editors...I still use this tool when I don't like the results I get with TimeWarp. Many, many years ago, I had a fairly low-cost standalone program that also did optical flow re-timing but I'm not sure if anything like that exists nowadays. Might be worth looking into if you don't want to use a compositor.
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