AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

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hammerjammer
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AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by hammerjammer » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:29 pm

Hello All,
I have a question about smart bones and nested layers. I just upgraded from AS pro 9.2 to 9.5. I think the upgrade is worth the money, even though I'm just a animation hobbyist. I was really excited about the nested layers abilities that are added to the software in this upgrade, especially after reading comments from forum members that this feature made them as happy as a fifteen year old boy with a new Playboy magazine. Ok, ok, so I just made up that last part about the fifteen year old boy with the magazine. But, it was funny, wasn't it? (sorry for laughing at my own JOKE).

ANYWAY.... Back to the Nested layers thing and what not.

Does this Nested bone layer ability work on smart bone Actions(DIALS) too?

To help explain my problem, I'm including a sample FILE that I re-created just to show you my problem from my original rig.
So now you have some homework to do, if you choose to help me.

When you first open the file, you will find that, I have a "eyes" sub group that has some masking and another sub group for the "Mouth" that has some masking as well. ALSO, you can move the eyelids, pupils and a crappy head turn using the dials I have created for these. When you move the B1 or head bone, the head moves, but the eyes and mouth do not because they are not binded to this bone yet.
This is where my problem starts. So, when you go ahead and BIND these layers to the head bone(here is where the homework stuff comes in, PLEASE try this with me), they now move with the rest of the head like you would expect, BUT you will find that you can no longer move the eyelids, pupils and crappy head turn. Assuming that this happens to you too. Isn't this where the new Nested layer controls stuff kicks in?
Please NOTE that I did check the box in the Bones layer settings that "Allow nested layer control"

What I'm I missing?
I even tried to just re-create the Actions for the dials thinking they where just no longer linked or something. BUT, that didn't work either.

Here's the file, or should I say your homework.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7k9kf03dak4bv ... 0head.anme

Any help would be great.

Thank you
Hammerjammer
Check out All of my animations on my YouTube Channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/HammerAnimation/videos

Thanks for watching!
Hammerjammer
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Víctor Paredes
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by Víctor Paredes » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:50 pm

Nested layer control doesn't work over bound layers, either Smart bones.
So you have several options:

- Add bone strength to B1 (it's in zero right now). That will make the eyes and mouth points follow B1.

- Bind the points of each layer to the bone (instead of binding the entire layer)

- Add bone strength to B1 and select all the vector layers of eyes and mouth. Now select B1 and go to Bone > Use selected bones for Flexi-binding. That way the eyes and mouth layers will be bent only by B1 (avoiding problems in the case you have other bones with strength in your rig).
Víctor Paredes
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hammerjammer
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by hammerjammer » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:16 am

selgin wrote:Nested layer control doesn't work over bound layers, either Smart bones.
So you have several options:

- Add bone strength to B1 (it's in zero right now). That will make the eyes and mouth points follow B1.

- Bind the points of each layer to the bone (instead of binding the entire layer)

- Add bone strength to B1 and select all the vector layers of eyes and mouth. Now select B1 and go to Bone > Use selected bones for Flexi-binding. That way the eyes and mouth layers will be bent only by B1 (avoiding problems in the case you have other bones with strength in your rig).
Hello Selgin,
Wow, thanks for the quick response. Only took about 20 minutes. It will take me longer than that just to type this response.

Ok, Firstly to be honest, I guess I'm a little disappointed that this cant be done using the new Nested layer control. I kind of thought that is what the new Nested layer stuff would fix. Maybe in a future Update, HINT to development team. :wink:

Anyway,

I tried your first and second methods on the rig that I posted with the original post from above. They both work just fine. I did not try the third because in this case, there were no other bones to have influence on.

The problem I have now is, I'm not sure how to apply these techniques to the rig I'm really trying to get this to work on. Maybe I should have made a better SAMPLE rig.

Here is a copy of the FILE I'm really trying to get this to work on. I have no secretes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0wqwkhk7qcyeh ... 209.5.anme

Selgin, If you don't have the time to look at this, I would understand, I do know that you are a busy man. I have much respect for you and all of your work. Maybe other forum members can help me to understand if you cant.
I'm not expecting anyone to build or fix the rig for me, I just want to learn how to do it correctly.

Thanks so much for your help Selgin.

Hammerjammer
Check out All of my animations on my YouTube Channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/HammerAnimation/videos

Thanks for watching!
Hammerjammer
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by Víctor Paredes » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:09 am

Ok, here is your file fixed:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/544 ... elgin.anme
The main problem is that "Allow nested layer control" wasn't check (in the bone layer proprieties>Bones tab). That is probably because that file was created in 9.2 or less.
I checked that, then I selected the "eyes mask group" group layer and went to the menu Bone > Release layer and points.
That unbind the group layer.
Now everything was working relatively well. The last problem is with the bones "Look up down" and "Head Turn". Their rotation is not working well inside the smart bone action. This problem happens when you change the parent of the bone when the smart actions are already created.
I recommend you to open each of their actions, select the bone, erase its keyframes and rotate each bone again.

About binding the layers, I think it's not needed anymore in most of the cases. You always can bind the points or select one bone for Flexi-binding.
Víctor Paredes
Former Moho Product Manager
Rigged animation supervisor in 'My father's dragon' - Lead Moho artist in 'Wolfwalkers'
Cartoon Saloon
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hammerjammer
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by hammerjammer » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:41 am

selgin wrote:Ok, here is your file fixed:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/544 ... elgin.anme
The main problem is that "Allow nested layer control" wasn't check (in the bone layer proprieties>Bones tab). That is probably because that file was created in 9.2 or less.
I checked that, then I selected the "eyes mask group" group layer and went to the menu Bone > Release layer and points.
That unbind the group layer.
Now everything was working relatively well. The last problem is with the bones "Look up down" and "Head Turn". Their rotation is not working well inside the smart bone action. This problem happens when you change the parent of the bone when the smart actions are already created.
I recommend you to open each of their actions, select the bone, erase its keyframes and rotate each bone again.

About binding the layers, I think it's not needed anymore in most of the cases. You always can bind the points or select one bone for Flexi-binding.
Hello again Selgin,

Thank you. I am very very embarrassed. :oops: :oops: I was so sure I had the "Allow nested layer control" checked.. I think I may have uploaded the wrong version of my rig, because every time I would make a change to try something else, I would create a new version or copy of it. I have about 15 versions. :oops:

Yes, My file was created in ASP 9.2. I was trying to update it and get it working using 9.5. I have been working on this character rig for a couple of weeks now. First it was getting the masking right and then trying to get my dials to work again. I am so confused.

Thanks so much for fixing the file. You didn't have to do that. I was just hoping for a push in the right direction so I could figure it out. I really don't know where It all went wrong.

I will open each of the actions and erase its keyframes as you stated above to finish it.

Its going to take me a day or so to study the file again, and to understand how it works.

Thank you, thank you.

Hammerjammer
Check out All of my animations on my YouTube Channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/HammerAnimation/videos

Thanks for watching!
Hammerjammer
RichardU
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by RichardU » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:42 am

selgin wrote:Nested layer control doesn't work over bound layers, either Smart bones.
I'm not quite sure what that means, but tried to use an SB to control vector layers in a bound switch layer and it didn't work ... while I was in frame 0. As soon as I moved to frame 1, it worked fine.
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hammerjammer
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by hammerjammer » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:36 pm

Hello again,

OK, I have had some time to look my Minion file over and now I think I understand what I was doing wrong.
Selgin you said that "Nested layer control doesn't work over bound layers, either Smart bones". OK, I am not 100% sure what that means, but I think it means, basically when I created my EYE MASK GROUP layer for the eyes, I must have BINDED the group layer and/or the vector layers inside of it to something I should not have. I was able to go back to one of my early versions of this character and recreate it without the problem using my new information. SO, thank you so much Selgin for your help. I may have never have figured that out. Having the group bound to something just sounded right to me. Just two mouse clicks and most of my problems went away. I have been trying to get this to work correctly for weeks. Not just the eyes but things like masking, Z depth for the arms, using bones as dials and a bunch of other things. I sure learnt a lot.

Thanks again Selgin, A true gentleman.

Its time for a beer.

Hammerjammer
Check out All of my animations on my YouTube Channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/HammerAnimation/videos

Thanks for watching!
Hammerjammer
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by funksmaname » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:44 am

FYI, you can always go to 'release layer' in the bone menu which should make things work again. bound layers break the access to lower nested layers. :)
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by hammerjammer » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:09 am

funksmaname wrote:FYI, you can always go to 'release layer' in the bone menu which should make things work again. bound layers break the access to lower nested layers. :)
Hello Funksmaname
Oh, ok I just was sitting here educating myself on all of the Bone menu things related to releasing points and layers. You know, actually reading the Users manual. I sometimes forget its there. I guess I'm spoiled by all the info and help in Youtube videos and here in the forum. I like trying to figure things out, But sometimes you just get stuck. Which is the case with releasing the points and all. I totally missed that one. I was Soooooo close to finding it too.

Thanks for the tip. Though I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this releasing points and layers stuff. I guess till now I never ran into a situation where I needed to use it.

Thanks

Hammerjammer
Check out All of my animations on my YouTube Channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/HammerAnimation/videos

Thanks for watching!
Hammerjammer
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hammerjammer
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by hammerjammer » Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:07 am

Hello All

Ok here it is, the final version. My Minion character is done. It only took me three weeks and 16 attempts to get it right.
(I'm not proud of that last part)
:D :D :D :D :D
OH YA !!!!!! Im dancing and singing......

Sorry, I lost my composure.. he he.

Here's the File.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qb9hvfxwdkt1m ... %2016.anme

Thanks

Hammerjammer
Check out All of my animations on my YouTube Channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/HammerAnimation/videos

Thanks for watching!
Hammerjammer
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by funksmaname » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:11 am

nice file!
Why didn't you have a mouth shape bone? seems to be the only thing missing... :)
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hammerjammer
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by hammerjammer » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:23 am

funksmaname wrote:nice file!
Why didn't you have a mouth shape bone? seems to be the only thing missing... :)
Hello sir funksmaname

That's right. I forgot about that. That's new to ASP 9.5
I'm gonna have to work on that one.
Plus I get to learn another trick or two.

I guess this will be version 17.

Ok, I gotta go. I got work to do...

Thanks for the idea Sir Funk

Hammerjammer
Check out All of my animations on my YouTube Channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/HammerAnimation/videos

Thanks for watching!
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by RichardU » Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:56 am

funksmaname wrote:Bound layers break the access to lower nested layers. :)
Are you sure about that? I thought you were the one who convinced me otherwise.
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by funksmaname » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:01 am

Hey RichardU, I think your issue was different - you were trying to control existing bones of child bone layers from a parent bone. It's those child bones that control their own nested children, not the bones of their parent bone layer... if that makes any sense?!

So, while you CAN control the BONES inside a child layer which in turn can control their own children, the top parent can't reach inside to the child bone layers children.

...i think...

:roll:
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Re: AS Pro 9.5 nested layers control question.

Post by RichardU » Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:43 am

funksmaname wrote:...i think...
I believe you are correct. So I have written myself a general rule, and rather than say what can't be done, I have expressed it in terms of how it must be done:

If the TopBone layer contains a Sub-Bone/Switch layer which is bound, in order to control the children of Sub-Bone/Switch from TopBone, you must create a bone in Sub-Bone/Switch which controls the children, and control that bone with a bone in TopBone.

I hope that's right.
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