Joint legs hips

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wagmun
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Joint legs hips

Post by wagmun »

I've been trying to get a perfect walk movement.
I use the offset bone method. I draw hips/torso in one layer, legs (thigh, calf and feet) on another.
I split the drawing apart, set bones to region binding, adjust strengths and so on.
Then I offset bones and bring them all together on frame 0.
When I move leg everything is fine when considering that each bone moves only what it's supposed to move.
But when leg is moved, say, frontwards, it starts ok and then it kinda "separates" from hip because they are separate pieces and there is not a real continuous line linking them together.
To try to build a better thigh top in order to allow for a better continuing line is a real mess bec parts are separate apart and I have to guess what shape give the thigh top.
I`ve searched the forum and found one person that gave up bone offsetting and decided to move one single piece torso/legs.
I've done some first trials and looks like it's easier to get to smoother joints.
Any thoughts about that?
Thanks in advance.
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lwaxana
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Post by lwaxana »

Continuous lines are tricky in AS. I think you'll probably have to use point binding. I explain the method I use toward the end of this thread (with the horse picture): viewtopic.php?t=16089
wagmun
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Jont legs hip

Post by wagmun »

Hi Iwaxana
Tks for your reply. Sorry that i didint retunr bef cause i was away for some time.
Im definitely moving away from bone offset. Its just impossible to have a smooth joint with peaces that should run together split apart.
Your technique looks much better to me.
I was trying it today and got stuck with another problem. My character's torso has a texture fill. What happens is that, now with flexi binding, when i move the arms, the texture is dragged together - not the torso itself, just the texture - even though ive bound points accordingly.
Any ideas on that? Bec i dont want to go back to the offset bone.
Tks again
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lwaxana
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Post by lwaxana »

Hi Wagmun,
The method I used with the horse does not use flexi point binding. The points have to be bound manually. If you used flexi point binding, you will need to release the layer and you may need to rebind the points to get it back to regular point binding. I just tested point binding with a texture and it worked for my one legged horse. :D
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heyvern
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Re: Jont legs hip

Post by heyvern »

wagmun wrote: Im definitely moving away from bone offset. Its just impossible to have a smooth joint with peaces that should run together split apart.
You can have both... split apart and "together" even using bone offset. For an arm you can leave the connection in place to the shoulder/body but move the main points away. Since there would only be a vector stretched and no points inbetween it works the same as if you didn't use bone offset. When you offset the arm back into place the points are lined up again.

Another trick I use is putting arms and legs on separate layers still keeping them "connected" to the body as a continuous shape. The way to do this is to keep vectors/points that connect to the body included with the separate arm/leg layers but don't have fills. These points will move exactly the same and appear to be connected, but can use layer order animation.

-vern
wagmun
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Joint hips and legs

Post by wagmun »

I expressed myself wrong. I meant I did manual binding.
I made a simple box-and-shape project which better explains the problems.
I put a rectangle in one vector layer, with a pattern fill, and a random shape on another.
Then I draw bones in both. When you move the random shape like an arm you'll notice that the fill is "dragged" together without moving the rectangle.
Maybe a ASP glitch.
wagmun
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Joint hips and legs

Post by wagmun »

Sorry. I forgot the file.
How can I send it through the forum?
Tks
wagmun
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Re: Jont legs hip

Post by wagmun »

heyvern wrote:
wagmun wrote: Im definitely moving away from bone offset. Its just impossible to have a smooth joint with peaces that should run together split apart.
You can have both... split apart and "together" even using bone offset. For an arm you can leave the connection in place to the shoulder/body but move the main points away. Since there would only be a vector stretched and no points inbetween it works the same as if you didn't use bone offset. When you offset the arm back into place the points are lined up again.

Another trick I use is putting arms and legs on separate layers still keeping them "connected" to the body as a continuous shape. The way to do this is to keep vectors/points that connect to the body included with the separate arm/leg layers but don't have fills. These points will move exactly the same and appear to be connected, but can use layer order animation.

-vern
The problem I have is the following.
Suppose I have the hip and, let's say, the left leg. Each one in a different vector layer and both inside a bone layer (I use ASP 6 Debut).
The hip is kinda rectangle with round shape in the back for the butt. And the thigh has a circular top.
This thigh top shape must be in continuous sequence to the round back curved shape of the hip.
When you have both together it`s relatively easy to make this. You try a first draft, move the leg back, then you realize you have to adjust the roundness of top thigh and hip, move forward and adjust again. Until you get both roundness to look continuous in any position of the leg.
But when i use bone offset, leg gets apart from hip when I'm editing the curve, so I have to guess what adjustment I need to make, them offset the bones for them to be together again, then realize the adjustment was not OK, then the split apart comes again when you go for further corrections.
Kinda messy.
Am I missing something?
Tks again.
wagmun
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Joint hips and legs

Post by wagmun »

Found a way to send the file where the texture fill dragging can be seen.
Any ideas why this happens?
Tks

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/644026/Texture%20drag.anme
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lwaxana
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Post by lwaxana »

wagmun--I'm not sure if I understand the problem, but looking at your file, I notice that the rectangle is not currently the parent of the other shape. For a hip joint, you would want the thigh bone as a child of the abdomen bone etc. Is that causing the problem?
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heyvern
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Re: Jont legs hip

Post by heyvern »

wagmun wrote: ...You try a first draft, move the leg back, then you realize you have to adjust the roundness of top thigh and hip, move forward and adjust again. Until you get both roundness to look continuous in any position of the leg.
I see what you mean. What I do is edit the points on a frame past 0 then copy those point movements to frame 0. Sometimes this works if the movement doesn't go "too far" and move the points away from bone influence. Not a problem if you are using point binding to bones.

Another trick to do, and this is something I do A LOT with more complex bone rigs, is to have a "set up frame" for points on frame 1.

When you move points on frame 0 they can move away from bone influence. However if you move points around on frame 1 that motion is "relative" to the bone influence. This means that the point motion is AFTER the bone motion influence.

So on frame 1 I have a "set up frame". This frame is where I make adjustments to the vector layers without worrying about moving the points away from the bones. It's almost the same as using bone offset for bones, however we don't have "point offset" on frame 0 so I just "steal" a frame to do the same thing for points.

For example I have very complicated "2.5D" head rigs. I can change the character entirely to look like a completely different character on frame 1 by shifting and moving points. All the bone influence works exactly the same relative to the point motion and bone motion.

If I had move those points on frame 0 it would totally destroy my set up because the points would be moved away from the bones. this way I don't have to change the bones at all, just move points on frame 1 to create a "new" version of the character.

-vern
wagmun
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Re: Jont legs hip

Post by wagmun »

heyvern wrote:
wagmun wrote: Im definitely moving away from bone offset. Its just impossible to have a smooth joint with peaces that should run together split apart.
You can have both... split apart and "together" even using bone offset. For an arm you can leave the connection in place to the shoulder/body but move the main points away. Since there would only be a vector stretched and no points inbetween it works the same as if you didn't use bone offset. When you offset the arm back into place the points are lined up again.

Another trick I use is putting arms and legs on separate layers still keeping them "connected" to the body as a continuous shape. The way to do this is to keep vectors/points that connect to the body included with the separate arm/leg layers but don't have fills. These points will move exactly the same and appear to be connected, but can use layer order animation.

-vern
Hi Vern
Could you give some further detail on your techniques?
Tks a lot
wagmun
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Re: Jont legs hip

Post by wagmun »

heyvern wrote:
wagmun wrote: ...You try a first draft, move the leg back, then you realize you have to adjust the roundness of top thigh and hip, move forward and adjust again. Until you get both roundness to look continuous in any position of the leg.
I see what you mean. What I do is edit the points on a frame past 0 then copy those point movements to frame 0. Sometimes this works if the movement doesn't go "too far" and move the points away from bone influence. Not a problem if you are using point binding to bones.

Another trick to do, and this is something I do A LOT with more complex bone rigs, is to have a "set up frame" for points on frame 1.

When you move points on frame 0 they can move away from bone influence. However if you move points around on frame 1 that motion is "relative" to the bone influence. This means that the point motion is AFTER the bone motion influence.

So on frame 1 I have a "set up frame". This frame is where I make adjustments to the vector layers without worrying about moving the points away from the bones. It's almost the same as using bone offset for bones, however we don't have "point offset" on frame 0 so I just "steal" a frame to do the same thing for points.

For example I have very complicated "2.5D" head rigs. I can change the character entirely to look like a completely different character on frame 1 by shifting and moving points. All the bone influence works exactly the same relative to the point motion and bone motion.

If I had move those points on frame 0 it would totally destroy my set up because the points would be moved away from the bones. this way I don't have to change the bones at all, just move points on frame 1 to create a "new" version of the character.

-vern
So simple. Dont know why they dont tell those things in the tutorial that comes with the software.
Tks a lot Vern.
wagmun
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:43 pm

Post by wagmun »

lwaxana wrote:wagmun--I'm not sure if I understand the problem, but looking at your file, I notice that the rectangle is not currently the parent of the other shape. For a hip joint, you would want the thigh bone as a child of the abdomen bone etc. Is that causing the problem?
Besides the rect and arm bones, there`s an extra small one outside which is a control bone which i use as the parent bone for the whole picture.
The rectangle has two bones and the arm, one.
The hierarchy is:
- top rectangle bone to control bone
- bottom rectangle bone to top rectangle bone
- arm bone to control bone
I`ve tried making arm bone parent to top rectangle bone and prob still the same.
sbtamu
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Re: Jont legs hip

Post by sbtamu »

heyvern wrote: You can have both... split apart and "together" even using bone offset. For an arm you can leave the connection in place to the shoulder/body but move the main points away. Since there would only be a vector stretched and no points inbetween it works the same as if you didn't use bone offset. When you offset the arm back into place the points are lined up again.

Another trick I use is putting arms and legs on separate layers still keeping them "connected" to the body as a continuous shape. The way to do this is to keep vectors/points that connect to the body included with the separate arm/leg layers but don't have fills. These points will move exactly the same and appear to be connected, but can use layer order animation.

-vern
heyvern, could you go more into detail on this, I have some problems with this also and not sure I fully understand what you mean.

thanks
Sorry for bad animation

http://www.youtube.com/user/sbtamu
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