back to basics in point vector construction

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Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Postby dondo » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:40 am

Going back to the original question, Zoesan - have you tried rendering it? When you hide a (visible) line, there is still a pseudo-line rendered to show the connection and points. It shows up when you're animating, but isn't rendered. Is it possible that's what you're seeing? (Definitely wouldn't disagree with the mavens in this community about better ways to do it - these guys are veritable moho gods, you should definitely listen to them. But I thought that might answer your original question.)
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Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Postby zoesan » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:27 pm

Hi dondo will give the rendering a go, ( like the word mavens )

synthsin75 wrote: Actually, I think older stuff, without things like smart bones, might be better to learn the basics on. I mean if that simple vector construction can throw someone, god forbid they try to figure out what a smart bone is doing.


yeah it has thrown me, haven't had the time to get back to it, but all I can say is it wasn't some kind of eureka moment just a healthy artist's wish to understand, given the forum title: How do I

zoesan wrote: in this construction its one layer, so raising and lowering is grayed out in menu, I think its more to do with how the points were
originated,so not sure what's controlling it to work the way it does, tried arm first, then weld, tried t-shirt first then weld either way one of if not both resulted in the blue t-shirt sleeve being in front and not behind, two layers would work, but this is just the one, I'll get back too another attempt again deceptively simple, the outcome is that rigging moves/deforms as one layer.


The irony is I don't really want a tee-shirted character and until I saw the anime vs9 version done solely with points on one layer would have gone with slowtiger's post etc.
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Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Postby hayasidist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:43 pm

zoesan wrote:The irony is I don't really want a tee-shirted character and until I saw the anime vs9 version done solely with points on one layer would have gone with slowtiger's post etc.
this may be a bit nit-picky of me but slowtiger's example is most probably done with points all on one layer - but there are three separate paths with one "filled with stroke" shape per path --- unlike the library file (AS version _6_ btw) where all the points are connected and are also used to create three shapes (as described in my earlier post).
(oh - and just for the record, no - it was not I who created the library item)
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Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Postby hayasidist » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:01 pm

synthsin75 wrote:Actually, I think older stuff, without things like smart bones, might be better to learn the basics on. I mean if that simple vector construction can throw someone, god forbid they try to figure out what a smart bone is doing.
I do agree in principle, but when you get a situation as here that is "old" but not "basic", it might be better to provide a clearer example of (e.g.) "good practice without smart bones".

Specifically here, the library example shows an approach to the use of paths and shapes that *does* successfully illustrate that there's not a mandated 1:1 correspondence between path and shape; but it's not the approach to "doing a sleeve" that most of us here would adopt.
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Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Postby Greenlaw » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:06 pm

Yeah, I was going to say the same. The shapes for the sleeve and arm can all be drawn in the same layer as multiple shapes. This keeps the artwork easier to edit and animate, and you can still animate the stacking order for the shapes. I admit I tend to use a lot of layers and groups when constructing a character, but I think one layer with multiple shapes constructed cleanly is all you need for this body part.

That said, I would break out the hand to its own group and layers, and that's because I would use a switch layer or special rigging there.
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Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Postby synthsin75 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

hayasidist wrote:
synthsin75 wrote:Actually, I think older stuff, without things like smart bones, might be better to learn the basics on. I mean if that simple vector construction can throw someone, god forbid they try to figure out what a smart bone is doing.
I do agree in principle, but when you get a situation as here that is "old" but not "basic", it might be better to provide a clearer example of (e.g.) "good practice without smart bones".

Specifically here, the library example shows an approach to the use of paths and shapes that *does* successfully illustrate that there's not a mandated 1:1 correspondence between path and shape; but it's not the approach to "doing a sleeve" that most of us here would adopt.


Oh, there's definitely better examples of "best practices", but the value in this example is exactly what you said...learning that curves and shapes need not be one for one. That's exactly what the OP had trouble understanding. That seems like a pretty basic lesson to me. Right up there with making shapes with holes or shapes that overlap themselves creating gaps.

It's also pretty valuable to know that the goal it to create the desired visual effect, instead of constructing a logical model. We often have to do things that are not really logical to achieve a desired effect, like sliding features across a masked model to give the appearance of rotation. All good stuff for new animators and Moho users to acquaint themselves with.

That said, I'd never construct an arm like that. Just wouldn't suit my style or purpose.
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Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Postby slowtiger » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:57 pm

hayasidist wrote:slowtiger's example is most probably done with points all on one layer - but there are three separate paths with one "filled with stroke" shape per path


Exactly.

I wonder if my preferred style of construction comes from my familiarity with constructing figures from cardboard shapes, as did in kindergarten, and from my favourite puzzle for a time, Tangram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangram). Also I did a lot of construction like this in Illustrator. For me it's natural to see the separate shapes of which some complex outline is made of. I never was tempted to start with drawing lines and welding them and then trying to fill them.
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Re: back to basics in point vector construction

Postby zoesan » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:20 am

Greenlaw wrote: Yeah, I was going to say the same. The shapes for the sleeve and arm can all be drawn in the same layer as multiple shapes. This keeps the artwork easier to edit and animate, and you can still animate the stacking order for the shapes. I admit I tend to use a lot of layers and groups when constructing a character, but I think one layer with multiple shapes constructed cleanly is all you need for this body part.

That said, I would break out the hand to its own group and layers, and that's because I would use a switch layer or special rigging there.


from this post I have extrapolated that the older version from library could be used if seen fit to give an example of how it was done in previous versions, useful if in position of teaching Moho, Greenlaw's post along in part with the others posted, adds additional contemporary good practice in the use of switch layers for hands etc. although I'll have to attempt the stacking order for shapes within one layer at some point.

slowtiger wrote:I wonder if my preferred style of construction comes from my familiarity with constructing figures from cardboard shapes, as did in kindergarten, and from my favourite puzzle for a time, Tangram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangram). Also I did a lot of construction like this in Illustrator. For me it's natural to see the separate shapes of which some complex outline is made of. I never was tempted to start with drawing lines and welding them and then trying to fill them.


slightly off topic but interesting all the same:
given the link on Tangram a quick view, wonderful recreational way to teach children 'brings the mathematical thought of Asia and incorporates it with bright colours and charming figures'. if you are an educator or teacher and not familiar definitely worth a look.
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