Hi again .
First, I want to say that, after poking around on this forum over the last week, I have found that you guys are more on really on top of this thing. I am really amazed by some of the scripting, and kudos to 7feet for all the hard work (though I still haven't found the Swiss army knife tool you mentioned in a recent post... I'll keep digging).
So, here's my new question. I've been playing around with 3D space quite a bit over the last week, but since I am new to it all I think I may be missing something. Is there an easy way, without resorting to zoom features, to make a camera move forward and backward? I know this may seem a stupid question, but so far the only way I am able to make it seem as if a 3D layer is coming toward you is by using the translate layer tool, which, given this predicament, works quite well.
The problem is: if I want my characters to move toward the camera (facing the camera) as the camera pulls back over my terrain, it gets a bit weird when I run into bumps. I've sorted this out somewhat by moving over the objects, but since collision detection isn't Moho's strong suit I am not sure if there are workarounds to imply movement of the layer without translating the whole thing. Does that question even make any sense? Okay, that's more than one question. Perhaps I need to spend a little more time investigating 3D production, but it seems like a simple tool to allow the camera to move across a 3D plane would be indispensible.
And just to clarify, what I am talking about is all possible with Moho already. I could, for example, start with my terrain rotated, and then drag it across so that the camera is moving right to left. Then, I can change the tilt on the camera so that it's facing the direction that I want to travel (in this case: forward), and as long as the tilt is the same at the end of the sequence everything works. But the real question is, are there any tutorials out there that address this problem and its ultimate simplification? Sorry for the long post.
One More Question
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, slowtiger
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interfector
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01 pm
Adjust the Z value of the camera. This will translate the camera forward and back.Is there an easy way, without resorting to zoom features, to make a camera move forward and backward?
With the Translate tool selected:
1) Change the values by entering a new number in the value in the text box for Z
2) Use the right mouse button over the same text box to interactively adjust the value.
3) Alt-Left mouse button to interactively track forward and back (this can adjust more than just the Z value though)
I'm not sure if this answers the rest of your question. It's late and I'm a bit tired. Could you try to clarify? And I'll take a look again tomorrow when I can see straight
Kdiddy
Producing solidly ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight/
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight/
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interfector
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01 pm
Sheesh.
I feel like such a dummy sometimes. I've just been dragging things around and trying to make it all work. Thanks very much for the help. Sometimes the easiest technique is the best, and I think this definitely solves my problem, but I still think it might be easier to drag the mouse to slide forward, much in the same way the zoom works. No real bother, though.
I'm still having quite a few problems with overlapping elements, like an arm passing in front of the torso. (I know that this can be accomplished by using multiple layers, but one of the problems I've found is, if I use outlines the shoulder becomes divided from the rest of the character's shirt... so I really can't seem to make the outlines of the two elements seam together to make it look as if they're one layer.)
I feel like such a dummy sometimes. I've just been dragging things around and trying to make it all work. Thanks very much for the help. Sometimes the easiest technique is the best, and I think this definitely solves my problem, but I still think it might be easier to drag the mouse to slide forward, much in the same way the zoom works. No real bother, though.
I'm still having quite a few problems with overlapping elements, like an arm passing in front of the torso. (I know that this can be accomplished by using multiple layers, but one of the problems I've found is, if I use outlines the shoulder becomes divided from the rest of the character's shirt... so I really can't seem to make the outlines of the two elements seam together to make it look as if they're one layer.)
Sorry, I shoulda been more specific. It was here, in the Universal Layer Tool - added Universal Point Tool, also post. And the one I was talking about is like a lot of the bits I've done. Basically compressing together a number of the tools that work on one aspect of the program. Like in this case, the point tools I use all the time. I completely understand why Lost Marble has kept the toolset pretty consistent and pretty easy to learn over the course of development, and agree as well . But especially with Moho 5, there's so much potential to power-tweak the tools for the people who already know the program (or in many cases people familiar with 3D apps) it's hard not to play with it.
It's funny, I really look at the feature requests a lot, and then do a little nueron burning to figure out how to do it. I'm lucky, most of my real jobs are at least interesting (mostly), but this has been actually challenging.
Don't feel bad about not figuring out the camera. I've been playing with Moho for round 'bout 2 years, and I just looked at my first real experiment with setting up 3D layers (I'd ignored it except for layer depth in 4.6) when I began trying to beat the Betas to death. Lo and behold, I did the same thing. Didn't want to have to punch in numbers, so I put everything (a lot!) inside a Group and translated the group around. I didn't see the zoom doing what I wanted, so there I went. The translation I understood at that point.
To get all the options on the tools, the best thing you could possibly do is, when you pick a new one, really look at that little bit of text that comes up on the bottom of the main window. It's a lifesaver. For both of my "cram a truck into a lunchbox" tools that I put together (link above), I still refer myself to that text, some times I forget, "how do you move the point rotation origin?" or some such. Look at 'em, it helps.
There's a few things you can do to make characters built out of multiple layers work. First, you mentioned the outline difficulty. And that, my friend, is exactly what the "Hide Edge" tool is for. If, say, the arm and the torso of a character are both the same color, but you want the arn to look okay at the shoulder, and be able to move in front. At the areas wher you know you don't want to see the outline, hide the edge. I generally do it on parts of the outline on both the(in this case) arm at the shoulder, and the area of the shoulder on the torso you need to place under it. Then I use the Line Width tool to taper the lines leading into where I hid them, to make the transition a little smoother. I set up a female character for the piece I was going to do for the contest, and since with my work schedule I doubt I'll be able to finish it (still a chance!), I'll post the file here as an exaple of how to set a character up. I spent a buncha time tweaking points to get the movement right, and the legs aren't quite there but...
Bar_F_1_3.moho(its in a .ZIP file)
There's a fair amount of stuff going on there. Sorry the switch layer tricks for the mouth and eyes ain't in it, but I made the mistake of testing out a script I was working on without saving, and was entirely succesful in blowing 2 hours of work in the ensueing crash. Unlike most 3D, you really do have to think about exactly how the character is going to be seen when you rig it. Open up the file and go nuts with the Manipulate Bone tool. I tried to make it so you couldn't make her look too wierd no matter what you did.
The other main way to go about it, if you need to keep things on one layer is to use some of the "old skool" tools. In particular, binding points directly to bones. The new way the flexi-binding (and region binding) works is great ( and make sure you take a look at the tutorial that refers to the "Bone Offset" tool), but some times you just need to attach points right to a bone, no questions asked. If you break the overall "shape" up into separate Moho shapes, you can set it up. Each shape (meaning a fill or outline - or both at once as one entity) within a layer has a "depth" that it lives at. Thats what the "Lower Shape" and "Raise Shape" tools are for. I know it's in the tutorials somewhere, but for a quick example of how it can work, look at the "back" arm in the file above. It's composed of 2 separate "shapes", based on the same outline, with an "edge hidden" line at the elbow. When you bend it past the point where a single shape would overlap and do awful things to the fills, the forearm shape just covers up the upper arm shape. This is a basic technique to remember. You can use it to divide up shapes, using one outline and hidden divider lines, to order how one bit will be in front or behind another.
One thing I will suggest is that you, where it might ever be important, is that if you try to use this shape sorting thing is that you name every shape. It makes it so much easier to keep track of things. One of the things I want (do it soon) in scripting is a quick display of the order that objects are sitting inside a vector layer. Sometimes there are a bunch, and fishing through to figure out the order can be a royal pain. But, because you can build heiarchies within a single layer that are all base on vectors that can be controlled collectively by bones, it's the move if you need serious, direct control.
And for my own lil' personal input, don't ever feel like a dummy for asking a question. I wouldn't have a job/career/whatever if I didn't. Pick the brains of anyone willing to answer who knows more than you in that particular thing. Most reasonable people will chime in, if they're confident in their abilities and not big weenies in the first place.
'Nuff of a tome for tonight.
--Brian
It's funny, I really look at the feature requests a lot, and then do a little nueron burning to figure out how to do it. I'm lucky, most of my real jobs are at least interesting (mostly), but this has been actually challenging.
Don't feel bad about not figuring out the camera. I've been playing with Moho for round 'bout 2 years, and I just looked at my first real experiment with setting up 3D layers (I'd ignored it except for layer depth in 4.6) when I began trying to beat the Betas to death. Lo and behold, I did the same thing. Didn't want to have to punch in numbers, so I put everything (a lot!) inside a Group and translated the group around. I didn't see the zoom doing what I wanted, so there I went. The translation I understood at that point.
To get all the options on the tools, the best thing you could possibly do is, when you pick a new one, really look at that little bit of text that comes up on the bottom of the main window. It's a lifesaver. For both of my "cram a truck into a lunchbox" tools that I put together (link above), I still refer myself to that text, some times I forget, "how do you move the point rotation origin?" or some such. Look at 'em, it helps.
There's a few things you can do to make characters built out of multiple layers work. First, you mentioned the outline difficulty. And that, my friend, is exactly what the "Hide Edge" tool is for. If, say, the arm and the torso of a character are both the same color, but you want the arn to look okay at the shoulder, and be able to move in front. At the areas wher you know you don't want to see the outline, hide the edge. I generally do it on parts of the outline on both the(in this case) arm at the shoulder, and the area of the shoulder on the torso you need to place under it. Then I use the Line Width tool to taper the lines leading into where I hid them, to make the transition a little smoother. I set up a female character for the piece I was going to do for the contest, and since with my work schedule I doubt I'll be able to finish it (still a chance!), I'll post the file here as an exaple of how to set a character up. I spent a buncha time tweaking points to get the movement right, and the legs aren't quite there but...
Bar_F_1_3.moho(its in a .ZIP file)
There's a fair amount of stuff going on there. Sorry the switch layer tricks for the mouth and eyes ain't in it, but I made the mistake of testing out a script I was working on without saving, and was entirely succesful in blowing 2 hours of work in the ensueing crash. Unlike most 3D, you really do have to think about exactly how the character is going to be seen when you rig it. Open up the file and go nuts with the Manipulate Bone tool. I tried to make it so you couldn't make her look too wierd no matter what you did.
The other main way to go about it, if you need to keep things on one layer is to use some of the "old skool" tools. In particular, binding points directly to bones. The new way the flexi-binding (and region binding) works is great ( and make sure you take a look at the tutorial that refers to the "Bone Offset" tool), but some times you just need to attach points right to a bone, no questions asked. If you break the overall "shape" up into separate Moho shapes, you can set it up. Each shape (meaning a fill or outline - or both at once as one entity) within a layer has a "depth" that it lives at. Thats what the "Lower Shape" and "Raise Shape" tools are for. I know it's in the tutorials somewhere, but for a quick example of how it can work, look at the "back" arm in the file above. It's composed of 2 separate "shapes", based on the same outline, with an "edge hidden" line at the elbow. When you bend it past the point where a single shape would overlap and do awful things to the fills, the forearm shape just covers up the upper arm shape. This is a basic technique to remember. You can use it to divide up shapes, using one outline and hidden divider lines, to order how one bit will be in front or behind another.
One thing I will suggest is that you, where it might ever be important, is that if you try to use this shape sorting thing is that you name every shape. It makes it so much easier to keep track of things. One of the things I want (do it soon) in scripting is a quick display of the order that objects are sitting inside a vector layer. Sometimes there are a bunch, and fishing through to figure out the order can be a royal pain. But, because you can build heiarchies within a single layer that are all base on vectors that can be controlled collectively by bones, it's the move if you need serious, direct control.
And for my own lil' personal input, don't ever feel like a dummy for asking a question. I wouldn't have a job/career/whatever if I didn't. Pick the brains of anyone willing to answer who knows more than you in that particular thing. Most reasonable people will chime in, if they're confident in their abilities and not big weenies in the first place.
'Nuff of a tome for tonight.
--Brian
Last edited by 7feet on Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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interfector
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01 pm
Brian,
Thank you very much for the comprehensive lesson... it will not be wasted on me. And thank you also for the kind words; I have been producing audio for so long, and am so used to many of the features of digital audio manipulation, that animation seemed a logical step forward. I felt like I needed a challenge, as well, and that is precisely what I'm experiencing (while having fun, of course). Although Moho is seemingly quite easy to jump into, its complexity is endless, and its capabilities staggering.
I had not even thought of hiding the edges (I had read about the tool in the tutorials, of course, but I am so used to scanning text for quick answers, as most of the time I have a general idea of what I'm getting myself into and am eager to get started using a piece of software... this animation biz is making me a bit more apprehensive). I wasn't meaning to sound self-effacing, either, but having been a fan of animation my entire life there is a strange impulse welling up inside of me to create, and the tools are more than adequate, but as with so many other pursuits one often finds one's self slapping one's self in the head for the silliest of reasons (like not taking the time to let the contents of tutorials and manuals seep in).
I've downloaded the project file and will no doubt benefit from it greatly. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but if you or anyone else 'round these parts have any tutorials on how to make a 2D character's head and/or body change perspectives smoothly (that is, how to make it appear that a character is turning in place, or that the camera is sweeping around them to get a different view... I assume you would need a different drawing for each perspective), it would be of great help to many amateur animators such as myself. Again, thanks for the assistance, and thank you also for the time and effort put into making your scripts available.
Thank you very much for the comprehensive lesson... it will not be wasted on me. And thank you also for the kind words; I have been producing audio for so long, and am so used to many of the features of digital audio manipulation, that animation seemed a logical step forward. I felt like I needed a challenge, as well, and that is precisely what I'm experiencing (while having fun, of course). Although Moho is seemingly quite easy to jump into, its complexity is endless, and its capabilities staggering.
I had not even thought of hiding the edges (I had read about the tool in the tutorials, of course, but I am so used to scanning text for quick answers, as most of the time I have a general idea of what I'm getting myself into and am eager to get started using a piece of software... this animation biz is making me a bit more apprehensive). I wasn't meaning to sound self-effacing, either, but having been a fan of animation my entire life there is a strange impulse welling up inside of me to create, and the tools are more than adequate, but as with so many other pursuits one often finds one's self slapping one's self in the head for the silliest of reasons (like not taking the time to let the contents of tutorials and manuals seep in).
I've downloaded the project file and will no doubt benefit from it greatly. Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but if you or anyone else 'round these parts have any tutorials on how to make a 2D character's head and/or body change perspectives smoothly (that is, how to make it appear that a character is turning in place, or that the camera is sweeping around them to get a different view... I assume you would need a different drawing for each perspective), it would be of great help to many amateur animators such as myself. Again, thanks for the assistance, and thank you also for the time and effort put into making your scripts available.
Take a look at this for faking 3D. It's the MUDBUBBLE BOY animation at
http://www.keyframer.com/
You'll need a quick connection (it's a Macromedia Breeze presentation), but it gives some great hints on drawing style and simulating perspective in movement.
HTH
Jah
http://www.keyframer.com/
You'll need a quick connection (it's a Macromedia Breeze presentation), but it gives some great hints on drawing style and simulating perspective in movement.
HTH
Jah
You can't have everything. Where would you put it?
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Lost Marble
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I think people have been talking about the layer tools when they may have meant the camera tools. To move the camera back and forth, select the "Track Camera" tool. Then, hold down the Alt key while dragging the mouse in the editing view to move the camera forward and back. Or, you can edit the camera's Z value in the tool options area.
Also take a look at Tutorial 5.8 for an example of moving the camera around in 3D.
Also take a look at Tutorial 5.8 for an example of moving the camera around in 3D.
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interfector
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:01 pm
I finally got around to watching the Mudbubble tutorial. Awesome. The drawing tutorial is especially useful. Just as a test I went back and redrew a character from scratch. What had taken several hours before took less than an hour with his technique of using shapes instead of expressive lines. That alone makes it worth watching (the rest is very good too). It works extremely well in Moho.
It also serves as a good reminder how much easier animation in Moho is. I had forgotten how many hoops you had to jump through to get things to move and tween in Flash. And while our graph tools may not be complete, in my opinion, they are significantly better to use than a single ease slider (that you can't graphically see what's going on). It's nice to see that sometimes the grass is greener on your side of the fence.
Thanks for sharing!
Kdiddy
It also serves as a good reminder how much easier animation in Moho is. I had forgotten how many hoops you had to jump through to get things to move and tween in Flash. And while our graph tools may not be complete, in my opinion, they are significantly better to use than a single ease slider (that you can't graphically see what's going on). It's nice to see that sometimes the grass is greener on your side of the fence.
Thanks for sharing!
Kdiddy
Producing solidly ok animation since 2001.
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight/
www.galaxy12.com
Now with more doodling!
www.galaxy12.com/latenight/
Yeah, "tween everything by default" is definitely something to be grateful for.
I just watched the mudbubble thing myself. Notice at the end someone asked if he ever tried Moho? His response was that he'd look into it, but was basically sold on Flash because it does everything he wants and is an "industry standard".
I just watched the mudbubble thing myself. Notice at the end someone asked if he ever tried Moho? His response was that he'd look into it, but was basically sold on Flash because it does everything he wants and is an "industry standard".
-Keith