My thoughts on Moho

[mykyl1966]

Well I keep downloading new versions of the demo and this is the first time I have decided to speak up. lol.

I am tempted to say that this is an app designed by a programmer.

I say this as it has 'features' only a programmer would put into it.

e.g. Draw a shape, Then choose another tool to select it, select the object and when it shows up with the checkbox pattern you press space on the keyboard.

WHY? Why cant I just draw the object, have it autofill with the current colours etc and switch off the fill if I want to with a simple checkbox. Perhaps similar to how Xara does its drawing.

It just seems like an awfull lot of steps for a simple shape.

As a programmer myself I never relied on my own designs for the interface usage. I always got third party input as I am too close to the project and what makes sense to me did not always make sense to others.

I really want to like this app. Perhaps I am just not understanding it.

I will persevere with the demo anyway as I really want to put a simple animation together.

Cheers

Mike R

[AcouSvnt]

WHY? Why cant I just draw the object, have it autofill with the current colours etc and switch off the fill if I want to with a simple checkbox.

Uh, you can.

[mykyl1966]

hmmm. As always there are folks who just make statements without reading the question.

I think what it comes down to is lack of understanding on my part.

Instead of just saying 'yes you can' (which helps nobody) perhaps a sentence more saying HOW I can would be more beneficial. Saying that I have found that the autofill stuff is at the top of the window. This is only for the pencil tool that I can see. The add point tool does not have this. Thats why I was asking about it. I thought it should autofill when you close the object line.

Anyway I will keep plodding on.

Mike R

[AcouSvnt]

You may want to sniff around this message board some more; Lost Marble goes above and beyond what most people would expect as far as listening to user feedback to help improve the program.

Maybe I could have responded with a more specific answer, but the bulk of your initial post was very generalized too.

Also, there are ways of customizing tools so that they behave more like you would like them to. Look at everything 7feet has contributed under the "scripting" topic. He's been providing customized tools for folks who just ask for them, and he doesn't even get paid for it.

Personally, I think, in light of Moho being animation software, and the fact that animation is such an involved (and involving) artform, that all things considered, it has an amazingly easy learning curve. To make it 10% easier -- such that one's grandmother could use it -- would be pointless, imo, since she probably doesn't have any desire to make an animated cartoon.

[Lost Marble]

I see what you mean about an option to auto-fill a shape if the add point tool is used to create a closed shape. That might be a useful option, but there are also times where you wouldn't want that to happen.

There's no doubt that Moho does things differently from other vector programs.

[7feet]

Seems like a good idea as well, so I'm working on it as I sit here. Shouldn't take too long, I'll put the mod up in the Script forum when it's done.

--Brian

[myles]

Brian, I think this might be safer as a separate tool for creating simple shapes rather than a modification to the existing Add Point tool.

While an auto-fill of a simple single-spline loop will work well, it may get complicated once you start getting multiple splines.

Consider - draw a simple loop. Now draw another loop overlapping it, and welded where it intersects (welding as you go).

Does the second loop get one fill or two?
If one fill, the whole lot or just the bit outside the first loop?
What happens to the fill of the first loop? The area of the overlap?
Should the overlap area have auto-filled once the second point was welded?

Thus:

(Click on the thumbnail for a full-sized version)

Just some paranoid thoughts - you probably have a better insight into this, or at least some definite opinions on the above questions.

Regards, Myles.

[myles]

Returning to the original post:

Why cant I just draw the object, have it autofill with the current colours etc

This happens with the rectangle and ellipse tools, tools which are guaranteed to produce simple closed shapes. You can of course then add and edit points on these shapes to create more complex shapes, which I often do.

After drawing a rectangle/ellipse, I often hit "smooth" to change to the standard point curvature before editing further.

Regards, Myles.

[7feet]

Oh, believe me, Myles, I'm thinking about it. I've got a rough version working, but is is kind of bone headed yet. Basically, I set it up to try to do fills whenever a point gets welded. And, for simple stuff, it works just fine. But the first "proof of concept" stab in the dark just grabs all of the connected points and tries to fill. If there are any non-connected lines floating off of the shape, it'll only do the outline. At this point, as per you're example, it creates a new shape, encompassing all of the points in all of the vectors. But the original shape is still there, so it's a bit wasteful. If you join a number of curves together, the fills will hiccup and do fun things like go outside the lines. So at this point it's definitely still in the "it works, but don't blame me if you do something stupid" stage. There are a few ways of going about it Probably the easiest is to only make new shapes out of connected vectors that aren't assigned a shape yet. Or only the smallest shape connected Or in you're example, I'd prefer you got a new shape of the whole new circle, lignoring the first one. If I can figure out exactly how all the points, curves and segments are related and ordered, I think I could do that.

In the end, I'd probably do it with a persistent menu like the bone constraints window, and a few radio buttons to pick your method of the moment. Ill probably put up what I have so far over in scripting, with a big WIP sign, and maybe you'll have some suggestions on the code. I don't really have any firm opinions yet. I'm just bashing it with a hammer and seeing what the pieces look like.

--Brian

[mykyl1966]

Wow. I cant believe someone is already having a look at that. Very cool.

I stayed up till about 5 am playing around with this new demo. If I manage to create the quick animation I am planning then expect me to jump on board. Perhaps I will have a look at the scripting language myself and maybe join in on that as well.

Heres hoping.

Thanks for the messages folks.

Mike R

[nobudget]

I wanted to reply yesterday but the Forum had some technical difficulties I guess...well here it is anyway:

Mike, you are making some valid points. Most "experienced" users are so used to the design choices it becomes second nature but I would agree with you that the workflow can be streamlined. I have been wondering myself since I've been using the latest version how some tools can be integrated, relocated or eliminated. I think that should be the priority for Lost Marble at the moment.

The power is in place, but now the workflow and logic could use some tweaking. The fill and select fill and fill order drives me crazy sometimes, I consider myself a novice still and regularly find the logic behind some tools but I agree that Moho has some design flaws that can be improved.

Every software developer will run into these problems, more and more features and the program can become a patchwork of ideas. So it is good if new users express their first impressions, just try to explain why you are having problems.

Start with all the tutorials, they will help you a great deal. Good luck and have fun!

Reindert.
www.nobudgetvideo.com

[Lost Marble]

Here's a new version of the Add Point and Translate Points tools that allows auto-filling:

http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=632

[mykyl1966]

Fantastic. Off to test it.

Mike R