Paint Bucket Tool

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Postby Fazek » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:42 am

I am a programmer, so I see how Paintbucket could be better without large programming investments. First of all, the selection of the shape is really a selection of a group of points. It works only with regular outlines. If you draw an outline with loops, like the shape of number eight, it won't work, because the surrounding points of the filled area are not forming a closed outline. But it could be improved with some intelligent filtering in the program (I made a version, see http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3507.)

Filling the intersection of two independent outlines is not possible. The whole rendering system is too simple to permit this. But making the rendering more complicated, adding some logical relations with shapes (and, or, not etc.) could be incompatible with one of the most precious feature of Moho, the compatibility with Flash.

The second thing is the "fill color". Setting and changing the color is a bit confusing. It could be easier and more user-friendly. It would be useful to have an option to fill with transparency, ie. to delete the fill shape.
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Postby Lost Marble » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:22 pm

First off, I'll admit that being so close to the program, I don't find this issue confusing at all. That's a drawback of being on the inside - you get used to how things work and don't always see the problems an outside user sees.

Toontoonz wrote:There are now three tools that deal with changing of colors in a shape: Select Shape, Create Shape and Paint Bucket.


I don't see it this way. Conceptually, there are two tools for creating colors in a shape: Create Shape and Paint Bucket, and one tool for changing colors in a shape: Select Shape.

If you have an existing shape and you want to change the color, just click it with the Select Shape tool. Again, if you want to change the existing color of a shape, you should never use the Create Shape or Paint Bucket tools to do this.

Create Shape and Paint Bucket are meant to be used to create new fills that don't already exist. It extremely inefficient to use these tools on an existing shape, get the warning dialog, and click Yes. There's no benefit to doing that whatsoever - just click the shape with the Select Shape tool.

It would be possible to make the Paint Bucket just silently overwrite an existing shape with color (if you click on an existing shape), but sometimes people want to create two fills on top of one another. Right now that's possible. If the Paint Bucket was simplified to re-fill existing shapes with new colors it might be easier to use, but it would also lose some of its current flexibility.

Finally, there's always room for improvement - I won't dispute that. But if you're waiting for Moho's tools to exactly emulate Illustrator (or Freehand, Flash, Photoshop, or your app of choice), you've got a looong wait ahead of you. I have no intention of emulating any of these programs.
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Postby J. Baker » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:10 pm

Lost Marble wrote: But if you're waiting for Moho's tools to exactly emulate Illustrator (or Freehand, Flash, Photoshop, or your app of choice), you've got a looong wait ahead of you. I have no intention of emulating any of these programs.


That's why alot of people have dismissed Moho. I have heard Moho's tools aren't so great on forums many of times. If you were to stick with the standard like every other program, Moho sales would boost.

I like moho's features and capability alot. It's just getting the job done that makes it a pain.
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Postby heyvern » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:34 pm

I am so confused...

Illustrators fill tools are... some kind of standard?

I would assume then... that everyone who uses Moho only uses Illustrator? I use many programs... and they all have different ways of assigning colors to shapes.

What about vector layers in Photoshop? You can't use the paintbucket with those. Shouldn't PS use the same paint bucket as Illustrator?

Does anyone remember the screaming when Adobe changed a bunch of key commands in version 4 of photoshop? Man that drove me nuts.

What about... <shudder> Flash? ick. I still don't know exactly how that dang fill bucket works in Flash... and there are two of the bastards that do different things!

I find the color assignment very simple and straight forward in Moho but...

...It was not always so. At first I was very confused. When I "got it"... I didn't say "this sucks!"... I said "WoooHoo! I figured it out!". I was happy. The fact that it was "different" was just the nature of the beast.

Instead of fighting over how LM should make one specific tool work, if you know how to create a filled shape do it. That is how it is done in Moho. If you don't like it fine... complain... stop using Moho. Use that other $99 animation program that has a better paint bucket tool. I think Hypercard still works... ;)

You will find as many ways to achieve an effect with each program as there are programs that paint or draw. Each program is unique. If Moho is "bad" because of this one "thing"... none of you would be complaining so much... you just wouldn't use it.

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Postby J. Baker » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:55 pm

I would like to add that I'm not complaining. Just stating a opinion. And I don't mean there is an actual standard. Just really saying that most programs can do alot with one option as where you have to click on 3 to 4 tools in Moho to get the same job done. I won't post any more on this subject.
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Postby Toontoonz » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:11 am

heyvern - So how do you like the new Paintbucket tool? Use it a lot? Got any tips on how best to integrate into one´s animation process the best?

And your "Use that other $99 animation program..." so that is the cut to the chase, bottom line with everything Moho - it ONLY cost $99 so be happy with it or shut up???
I don´t know but when people use the "it costs only XX dollars and if you don´t like it, shove it"....well that ain´t going to be much of a selling point for anything.

And about your comment that
"What about vector layers in Photoshop? You can't use the paintbucket with those."
Photoshop has vectors? The only vector thing I can think of in Photoshop is a vector mask:
"A vector mask creates a sharp-edged shape on a layer and is useful any time you want to add a design element with clean, defined edges."
But this is not anything like used as a part of a drawing - its a mask that hides or reveals part of the image. This is not comparable to vectors in drawing programs such as Moho or Illustrator or Flash or other vector program.
Or is there some vector drawing function in Photoshop I have been missing out on?

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J. Baker - I agree with your assessment on standardized tools. People do not like to learn 15 different ways on 15 different programs to do something. Moho is very clumsy to do many, many tasks. And apparently going to stay that way.
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Postby Fazek » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:22 am

I think the Paintbucket would be very useful if Moho gets a tool to vectorise scanned drawings.

I hope it becomes reality soon. There are animators using the traditional way with paper and pencil. Our studio also needs this feature. I could make this program - I already made similar things -, but not in LUA, because it is too dumb and slow. Perhaps a C shared library. It is possible to use such things from LUA.

A question to LM: do you want to put a pixel image vectorising tool into Moho in the near future? I don't want to work unnecessarily.

A different thing: Can somebody tell me how to use the styles? If I select a style, I can't create shapes with its settings (neither Paintbucket nor Create Shape). It uses always the <none> settings. Maybe it is an error in the Linux version?
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Postby ulrik » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:50 am

Fazek wrote:A different thing: Can somebody tell me how to use the styles? If I select a style, I can't create shapes with its settings (neither Paintbucket nor Create Shape). It uses always the <none> settings. Maybe it is an error in the Linux version?


Hav you tried this:
http://users.monash.edu.au/~myless/catn ... tyles.html
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Postby Fazek » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:18 am

Thank you Ulrik. Now I understand more. But when I select or change a Style on the upper menu, the Applied styles: changes to <None> and becomes disabled (gray) and often I paint with the settings was on the upper part BEFORE the selection. It would be better to paint with the actually selected style (maybe that was the original idea, but working wrong).
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Postby heyvern » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:52 am

Photoshop has "Vector Shape layers". These are layers defined by vectors. Not pixels. Technically all layers in Photoshop have an inherent mask by default.

They are kind of... almost vector layers in photoshop but... only one color per layer. This is a bit of a drawback. Yes you can use a vector mask on a pixel layer... but you can also have a "solid" color "vector" layer that has no pixels whatsoever.

I use these layers in Photoshop A LOT! I love em but I am very frustrated with their limitations. I can create logos and art work... web layouts... whatever using vector shapes and text layers in Photoshop and layer effects (drop shadow, strokes, emboss etc)... and save very very small resolution independant PSD files. I can resize these files to any resolution and they are "perfect". There is no quality loss when resizing for different uses (web, print, animation, etc).

I also export these vectors to Moho on occassion as AI format.

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I have not updated to Tiger yet so I am stuck with the "old version"... sans paint bucket. (I just realized I could install the demo on my PC to try it out... but... I have no need for it at the moment).

I have gotten kind of use to creating shapes in Moho by defining them before creation or using predifined styles from a template.

At this point a paint bucket is superfluous or redundant for me.

My view about it was the way Mike described it... a way for "confused" new users to fill shapes using a somewhat "familiar" tool of sorts. This was a particular trouble spot for new users if you read the forums regularly. I think he was trying to address this issue.

(Keep in mind... that paint bucket was created using LUA just like all the other tools. I think Fazek has already modified it actually.)

What is the process of filling a shape in Illustrator and how exactly is it harder or has more steps? I find the process about the same as far as clicking and fiddling. Count the clicks needed to draw a shape in Illustrator and fill it... remember... count all the clicks.

If you are use to using AI it seems "faster" and "easier". I drove home the other day and don't even remember doing it... ;)

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No... I am not saying "$99 you get what you pay for so shut up."

I am saying that there is nothing else in the price range that has these features and ease of use. There is no other application like Moho that would attract the current users (really really cheap cheap low budget animators who get the water and electricity cut off every once in awhile). Even if the price went up... was doubled... there aren't applications like it in this price range.

Moho worked the same way as a free demo. Paying for it (any amount) won't change how it works. I used it for two weeks before purchase. I figured out how to create filled shapes and was aware of the "different" behaviour from other drawing applications.

Quite honestly... I saw the paint bucket tool as a... "bone" thrown in on top of the universal binary code for the mac version so at least it had a "new feature". The Mac improvements took more effort by a long shot than the paint bucket tool. Mike may not say it... but... the Mac version is a pain in the arse. I have seen this before with another application. I love Macs... but the developers get very annoyed with it.

My feeling is that low priced applications from small developers who actually comunicate with their users (when the baby is asleep) get into these situations more so than larger companies. Since they are more approachable and the price is low... people seem to expect more for some reason.

I am guilty of this myself. ;)

Sorry for the rant. Just trying to support LM now that we "got him back" so to speak.

I can imagine he was probably expecting a more postive response from all the hard work. It was a free update afterall. I don't think the new paint bucket tool will drive away customers.

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Postby Toontoonz » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:26 pm

Vern: You say about Photoshop: "I also export these vectors to Moho on occassion as AI format. "

Which version of Photoshop are you using? Mine can´t do that. The simple vectors it exports have no color, are misshaped and well...worthless. It would be better just to draw them in Moho.

How can you "export these vectors to Moho on occassion as AI format"?
One can´t export files from Photoshop in an .ai format that Moho can properly use - there is no color, the shapes are way off, etc, etc.
And one can´t save files in Photoshop as .ai files.
All Photoshop can do is export paths to Illustrator in an .ai format. Note that if there is more than one vector shape layer in the Photoshop file that is exported as a .ai file, Moho will only show the top vector shape layer (uncolored shape only)

Exporting a file from Photoshop as a .ai file is listed under File > Export > Paths to Illustrator...

------------------
And you say:
"I can create logos and art work... web layouts... whatever using vector shapes and text layers in Photoshop and layer effects (drop shadow, strokes, emboss etc)... and save very very small resolution independant PSD files. I can resize these files to any resolution and they are "perfect". There is no quality loss when resizing for different uses (web, print, animation, etc). "
This is misleading.
You give the impression that one can draw a complicated character in Photoshop using vector layers, export it to Moho as a vector and use it as a vector in Moho and this is not true.
And Type (text layer) is vector like - as in all software, but only within Photoshop. One cannot export or save the text layer from Photoshop as a vector or export it as a .ai file to Moho.

Here is a link to a tutorial regarding vector shape use in Photoshop.
As one can see the shapes are quite simple...and none can be properly exported from Photoshop as .ai file for Moho to use.
http://iit.bloomu.edu/vthc/Photoshop/DR ... shapes.htm

In order for a .ai file to be used by Moho it has to be a version 8 type .ai file. Which is made when exporting from Illustrator or other vector program.

If you have a new trick or technique about saving Photoshop files as vector .ai files I am very interested to learn about it!

---------------
(Earlier you stated that in Photoshop one can´t use the Paintbucket tool on a vector layer shape - correct, but one does not need to. To change the color one simply selects the shape layer, double click on on the color thumbnail in the layer menu and pick a new color. Color changed.)
----------------

When you get a chance to use the new Moho Paintbucket tool please post your thoughts on it.
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Postby heyvern » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:28 pm

Toontoonz wrote:Vern: You say about Photoshop: "I also export these vectors to Moho on occassion as AI format."

Which version of Photoshop are you using? Mine can´t do that. The simple vectors it exports have no color, are misshaped and well...worthless. It would be better just to draw them in Moho.


I don't have this problem. Exported paths from PS open fine in Moho for me. I don't know what you are experiencing but it is different from my experience. I use PS v7 on Mac.

Exported paths from photoshop are very basic. I beleive they are in an early format of the AI file structure... possibly v3? I don't think AI versions are a factor with the path export.

Yes... no fill colors on the exported PS paths... I don't need them in that situation anyway... I just want the path to use in Moho... so I don't have to reinvent the wheel.

Let me explain...

See.. I will sometimes "draw" with paths or vector layers in photoshop, I will create a very complex vector path or shape and need it for another use. It is "stuck" in photoshop. Exporting it allows me to use it elsewhere... Flash, Moho, Illustrator, Quark, whatever.

I also will clean up these paths in Flash, Moho, Illustrator, Quark, whatever. Sometimes I just use them as a very precise "tracing layer" in Moho.

I don't do this very often. Once in a blue moon... like I said... on occassion.

And you say:
"I can create logos and art work... web layouts... whatever using vector shapes and text layers in Photoshop and layer effects... "

This is misleading.
You give the impression that one can draw a complicated character in Photoshop using vector layers, export it to Moho as a vector and use it as a vector in Moho and this is not true.
And Type (text layer) is vector like - as in all software, but only within Photoshop. One cannot export or save the text layer from Photoshop as a vector or export it as a .ai file to Moho.


Uh... er... well... see...

If you don't push the limits of what a program can do... then you wouldn't be able to do all those things.;)

How I use shape layers in PS...

PS shape layers are not limited to simple shapes! You can draw anything you want on those layers... within reason of course. Using multiple shape layers you can create very complex drawings. Shape layers can be "compound shapes". You can also set how some shapes effect others within one layer (those "boxy" icon thingies at the top).

I create a layer set in PS and group many vector layers in it. This is great for logos so I can resize them up and down while designing a web site or print material. Or if I have some kind of other shape that I have not decided on the size yet. Doing this eliminates the quality degradation.

To be fair I don't use AI or PS as much for vector shapes in Moho. I usually draw directly in Moho. I was merely using these PS techniques to show how each program is different... and not all the tools are the same or work the way we think they should. Everyone has a different way of using the tools.

I wish that PS had the same vector ability that AI has... it would eliminate having to open another program.

I am merely trying to point out that the "standards" of tools aren't really "standards". You make them do what you want. Every company has their own standards.

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PS Path vector export

You can export any vector layer including text out of PS. There are two completely different methods I use. One involves copying the vector shape layer to a path and exporting (get outlines text layer copy to path)...

...the other way involves just saving the file as a Photoshop PDF and opening in Illustrator to extract the paths. You can embed non distorted text layer fonts or covert on the fly to outlines. Photoshop will keep vector shapes as vector in a PDF.

(Earlier you stated that in Photoshop one can´t use the Paintbucket tool on a vector layer shape - correct, but one does not need to. To change the color one simply selects the shape layer, double click on on the color thumbnail in the layer menu and pick a new color. Color changed.)


Another point... how do you change the color of a shape in Moho? You click on it with the select tool and pick a new color... uh... yeah... that simple. just trying to point out that each program has its own way of things. They all behave differently.

If I get some free time I may try out the paint bucket tool on my PC. Like I said... I have absolutely no dire need for it at the moment.

p.s. Compared to how I use most of my tools... this whole thing about Moho's filling and shape creation... is... well it is a very small thing.

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Postby Toontoonz » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:21 pm

Whew! Complicated stuff you do. Good luck.
Better just to draw in a vector program and export to Moho or just draw in Moho. Photoshop is not a vector drawing program.

The test "vectors" I exported from Photoshop and imported into Moho were basically worthless (no color, shape way off - take half hour or more of Moho point and line adjusting just to clean it up), one might as well have just drew it in Moho.
And as far as exported paths from text in Photoshop, why not just use the insert text function in Moho?

Everybody has their own work methods I guess. As long as it works for you, great!
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Postby heyvern » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:33 pm

Toontoonz wrote:... Photoshop is not a vector drawing program.



Well... yeah... it isn't "sold" as a vector program. Just depends on how you use it. It wouldn't replace AI.

I heard rumors that the next version of PS may just combine AI into it... oh baby... that would rock.

Like I said I don't really use Photoshop to do Moho vector stuff. I usually draw directly in Moho. On rare occassions... if I have something already done in Photoshop I can still use it.

The test "vectors" I exported from Photoshop and imported into Moho were basically worthless...


Oh I see... you are talking about that same old problem with ANY eps, or AI import into Moho... this is an old song...

... The curve definitions of AI bezier curves and Moho's curves are completely different. There is no "perfect" translation. The math that defines them is not the same.

I thought you meant that PS exported paths don't import properly. There is a difference between "broken" and "different". AI imports into Moho. Because the curves are "different" it is not a "perfect" translation. You don't get exactly the same thing.

This is different from saying that AI import is "broken" in Moho. It is not "broken" just the curves are not translated "exactly".

When drawing in AI for Moho use I know this "up front" so I draw "differently" knowing that the end result is for Moho and animation not for print.

I guess it is a matter of expectations... they put "estimated" mpg on the window sticker of a new car... in reality... it is always less.

And as far as exported paths from text in Photoshop, why not just use the insert text function in Moho?


Uh... yeah... er... You missed the point on this one... I wasn't actually addressing the use of text in Moho... I was explaining how you CAN export text and all vector layers as AI from Photoshop. You had indicated this wasn't possible. I was explaining how it could be done since you asked.

I would not use imported outlined text EPS or AI in Moho... I would ALWAYS use Moho text in Moho.

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Postby Toontoonz » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:11 pm

Vern, I hope you get to try the new Moho Paintbucket soon.

I think you mentioned you had a PC. I would almost recommend putting Moho on the PC - it works a lot snappier- well, on my Mac vs. PC anyway.
(And you don´t have to buy Mac OSX 10.4 to get the newest Moho updates.
To quote LM on update 5.4: "Major speed improvement for both PowerPC and Intel Mac versions of Moho - playback and overall interaction is much smoother. ")
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